Carl Watkins is a very calm man. There's no tension in his voice as he responds to questions I throw at him over the course of three or four phone interviews. He's definitely not in a rush to do anything very quickly when it comes to EEStor. You almost get the feeling that Watkins is already enjoying a sort of retirement from conflict now that he and his team own the exclusive rights to EEStor technology for all three wheeled vehicles and a portion of the two wheeled vehicle market. Where does that peace of mind come from?
First, Watkins and team are very comfortable with the progress EEStor is making towards ramping up production in 2009. What's left to do is described by Watkins as having been done elsewhere before and well understood. Just a matter of execution. Secondly, Watkins is basing his marketing efforts on the un-hyped logic that flows from simple demonstrations of technology that he will allow his prospects to experience prior to signing a deal with LightEVs.
Do you have anything to show them now? "No."
Then how are you going about things prior to being able to do that?
"Well, at this point we are saying here is the technical information about why this is going to work. We'd like you to know we are here and are doing this. When you want to talk about it based on the fact that we are not going to have unlimited production in the beginning and only a certain number of people are going to be able to get this and introduce a product, let us know. "
I drill into this point with Watkins. Essentially, it boils down to this. In the early going, LightEVs will not have unlimited production capacity. Everyone who is a serious player in the e-bike or scooter space will not be able to be serviced in the beginning. So, if you're one of those who feels it's best to wait and see, don't wait too long because your competitors may get in ahead of you.
"We would like to have discussions with anyone who is interested sooner rather than later because we are going to start figuring out who we want to work with in the beginning in each market segment so we get the best coverage of all the markets. You gotta understand this is going to take two or three years. Now, if a few manufactures can achieve this, that's basically better for us. It just comes down to who can present a viable product suite that would address the various mobility issues around the world. "
I signal that I follow his train of thought here. The message is plain. If you're talking to LightEVs now about your EESU needs now, you are simply ensuring that you won't be left behind once initial rounds of production are put together. Watkins adds that "nobody has what I consider to be a dominant position in any of these markets. But this will be a game changer."
"I mean whoever is the first company to get this technology would have a tremendous advantage over any lithium ion based solution. I mean sure there are short term advantages based on distribution but anyone who can google bike specs is going to find this technology. There would be a tremendous advantage."
It comes off as very matter of fact. Watkins explains to me that they want to sign up companies for a portion of their production but won't be expecting payment until after the customer has tested one of their own units off the production line. I ask if maybe there's some enormous price strategy issue here for the early adopters. Watkins hasn't completely settled that question for now but he cites Toshiba's recent announcement of an ebike package which amounts to a cost of $2000 or $3000 per KHh. "We expect to be very competitive i nprice with lithium iron phosphate."
LightEVs isn't interested in setting up territories or exclusive licenses unless it involves "a very persuasive price." I press him about this a few times and he only reluctantly came to that conclusion. That's not how they want to tackle what they have here.
What do they have here? Watkins points out that the Electric Bike World Report says in 2008, there will be 26 million ebikes sold up from 20 mil last year. Watkins tells me,
"We think it's the best market there is for EEStor technology... There's distribution in place. Regulations are simple. Bikes are commonly accepted modes of transportation all over the world. Worldwide, it's a vigorous market."
He talks about the growth of ebikes in Sweden and Europe and then compares them to the markets in Asia which are absolutely enormous. He cites single manufacturers who are selling hundreds of thousands of units every month. Watkins recognizes the obvious issues of cost of living etc but still feels that even China has a healthy high end market with many who would be willing to pay what they intend to charge.
Watkins' team is planning to target initially a 1KWh ebike which is thought to be the ideal power pack for a bike. "It could give you 100 miles of non-pedaling range depending on a set of well known factors." They have plans to offer a package including the EESU, a controller, motor as well as charger. Watkins adds, "We have a very sophisticated controller that we are planning to use with this that will give our customers all sorts of advantages in terms of performance and range. Change your top speed, range, etc."
In all my conversations with Watkins, I wonder if he's ever going to break down and start hyping his solution. Never happened unless you count how he calmly explained to me that it will be impossible for anyone to win the Automotive X prize without EEStor technology.
"Anybody who wants to win the X prize is going to have to be using the EEStor units. I think the likelihood of some other battery technology being able to compete with the EEStor unit in terms of the X Prize would be....probably not possible."
So who is LightEVs talking to lately? Everybody or at least a significant set of large players in the ebike markets. Watkins is comfortable pointing out that they are doing well so far but he he won't tell me anyone in particular they are talking to. I ask about Aptera and Segway (which is incidently still a Kleiner investment), but Watkins says no, no yet.
Throughout the conversation, I draw Watkins back to his due diligence efforts. He tells me his team stayed abreast of Dick Weir's progress over the last four years including utilizing my two blog sites over the past year to learn "what people were saying" about EEStor. Some of this information formed the basis of questions Watkins' team asked Dick Weir about prior to signing the deal. So, I ask Watkins if he ever came across an aspect of the science that Dick Weir wasn't aware of or didn't understand. Voltage, Temperature, Fragility, Cost, etc? The answer is no to all of the above. He addressed all of the concerns. I point out to Watkins that many look at the LightEVs contract as adding no new credibility to EEStor.
"Why does EEStor need any credibility? If I were Dick Weir, I wouldn't do anything different than he is doing right now which is he's not talking about his technology. And why should he? So a bunch of guys can get excited about this new innovation which really has no relevance to what happens to him? He has a specific task and goal and that's what he's working on. And as far as I am concerned that's exactly what he should be working on. The less he talks about it, the better. "
Excellent Article.
"Watkins hasn't completely settled that question for now but he cites Toshiba's recent announcement of an ebike package which amounts to a cost of $2000 or $3000 per KHh. "We expect to be very competitive i nprice with lithium iron phosphate."
Would someone really pay north of $3,000 for an e-bike? That would seem to price them out of the overall market.
Thanks b for this interview.
I hope no one wastes thier time working on the automotive X prize because it belongs to eestor.
Has DW yet to recommend that maxell, li battery companies close up shop? Perhaps all EV R&D should be put on hold until eestor is ready.
I have long said that "EEstor is either a scam or a real thing". And now this is more true than ever.
TY B, for your continued efforts
Can u ask Carl next time why his website is lame?
http://www.lightevs.com/
I doubt major manufacturers care one bit about a suppliers website if the technology is good enough. LightEV's will not be an end of line player and the brand awareness will be either eestor or the manufacturer.
It means Carl doesn't have a web developer on his payroll. And he doesn't miss him/her.
At even $1000 per 1kw eesu, that thing better be removable.
I remember students back when I was in college walking around with their bike seats in hand.
Carl is correct about the absolute lack of value in pre-hyping the EESU. Roll it out done-deal, because RW won't get a moment's peace when a real unit goes public.
Yes, B. Thank you for your continued and tireless effort in following this story.
Guys and gals,
There's no longer any "there" there when it comes to EEStor. Perhaps their early research revealed some interesting phenomenon that implied a breakthrough, as well as interest from serious partners. But that was long ago...if a licensing deal with LightEV is the strongest endorsement available now, when a true production prototype is ostensibly less than 2 months away (and lab-built prototypes supposedly in numerous locations per Watkins), then there's a SERIOUS disconnect with reality.
I truly wish it were otherwise, but logic and common sense say it must be so.
Would someone pay north of $3000 USD for an e-bike? Well, Sam's Club is selling the Segway for $4374, and you can't even sit down on it!
I think a better question is: How *many* people worldwide would pay more than $3000 USD for an e-bike? If it's more than one company can produce in a year, then price isn't a problem.
"... I ask Watkins if he ever came across an aspect of the science that Dick Weir wasn't aware of or didn't understand. Voltage, Temperature, Fragility, Cost, etc? The answer is no to all of the above."
Hi B,
You answered this question in the chat area, but could you mention here, at this posting, that you specifically asked Watkins about dielectric saturation?
I am assuming that when you mention "voltage" you were implying the known phenomena of decreasing permittivity with increasing voltage, but you know what happens when you assume.
I think it's fair to say that a great many people really want a clear response that these critical questions based on contemporary scientific understanding have been addressed and answered.
Thanks,
PhilS, yes, Mr. Watkins and I talked about dielectric saturation. I put the question to him in the context of saying to him that some people think Dick Weir doesn't understand or isn't aware of dielectric saturation. I asked, " Is that a crazy statement from your perspective?" "Yes."
Watch out---here comes the return of Y_PO. :-)
At $3k/kwh EEStor will have a very substantial market. At $2k/kwh they won't be able to make them fast enough to keep up with demand. The nearest competitor in LiFePo4 would be something like this from LifeBatt
http://www.lifebatt.com/retail_sheet.html $1880 for a 48v20Ah (960 wh's)battery pack.
Reading into the statement above...
It looks like they will give you the option of changing output voltages. With batteries, it is usually a compromise of setting up your pack for lower voltage with higher torque or higher voltage for higher speed.
Also, this seems to me to be a much more lucrative market then the Zenn market. I can envision millions paying $2k for a 1 kwh battery pack, but I don't see much of a demand to pay 104k for a 52kwh pack. So this may be an excellent market to get started in until they are able to get the prices down.
eestorblog
Nice interview. Watkins seems like a thoughtful person and not the least concerned about the viability of the technology which seems a given in his mind.
I look forward to part 2 of the interview. Any idea as to when we might expect it (it being later in the day)?
Anyway, I appreciate this entire forum though I understand only the bare essentials of some of the discussion.
About the comment about the XPrize, "I think the likelihood of some other battery technology being able to compete with the EEStor unit in terms of the X Prize would be....probably not possible."
I think the XPrize that that the car needs to get 100MPGe (miles per gallon equivalent). The Aptera should be able to go more than that...
Not sure why Carl Watkins would say it would be impossible without eestor.
Not sure why Carl Watkins would say it would be impossible without eestor.
-jimbobway
>>>>>>>>>>>>>.............
disclaimer: the following is idle conspiracy theory and not intended to slander the character of protected individuals...
I think that there may be a concerted effort to stifle all energy storage research and development or investment by invoking the eestor EESU.
Primary beneficiaries would be the status quo in energy storage or the fossil fuel/nuclear industries.
Translation: we have the holy grail of energy storage; don't even bother!
Secrecy is the key
Am I a jerk yet?
ricinro-
I am beginnning to wonder the same thing, especially after the last interview. But I am alos a bit of a conspiracy theorist.
No where in the article did it say EESTOR or LightEV would sell a 1kW EESU for $2000 or $3000 dollars. The article said that Toshiba may sell a lithium ion phosphate battery for this amount.
I lived in Japan. It really expensive to park (like $300 of dollars a month for parking even by our own apartment). Also gasoline is very expensive and the yearly vehicle inspections are expensive. People in the US may think that someone in Japan won't pay $2000 dollars for a 1kW electric bike, but unless you lived there you don't understand.
EESTOR believes they can make an EESU for an automobile for $3000 dollars.
So folks, the point was that LightEV will be able to sell a 1kW EESU for a lot less then what Toshiba can.
Looking at this strictly from a business perspective, if EEStor has a far superior product as compared to the best lithium battery product, why would Weir sell it for any less? Out of the goodness of his heart! I don't think so. Because of the advantages of an EESU, he could sell them for the same price or more than what the current lithium batteries sell for. It would take years for demand to drop off to the point where they need to lower their prices.
And that brings up the problem with Zenn. If they can sell an unlimited number of 1kwh EESU's for $2k, what would be the incentive to sell 52kwh EESU's to Zenn for under 6k ($116/kwh)?
I think some of the delays that you are seeing with Zenn are for this very reason. EEStor may have some contractual obligations to sell the EESU at a certain price point, but he may not be able to meet these promised prices until the producton lines are up to high enough volumes and he has worked out all the bugs. I think you may see LightEvs getting EESU's before Zenn. It has to be a lot easier making 1kwh packs for bikes than making 15 or 52 kwh packs for cars. This would parallel the same strategy used by A123. They didn't try and go after the automotive market as their first venture, they went after the power tool market. This allowed them to get a revenue stream coming in while working out all of the production bugs. If a few Dewalt battery packs failed out in the field, it wouldn't be anywhere near the economic disaster compared to a failure of an automotive pack.
@GaryB
But Zenn is a shareholder in Eestor, so that in itself would warrant Eestor carrying out its duty. Maybe. But it's true, I don't know what I'm talking about.
The electric bicycle set up I a have been looking at would cost about $1600, that includes motor, controller battery pack etc. If LightEV can give a similar or better range for the same or less, then I would look at it definitely, because there would be no need to worry about replacing the power pack after 2-3 years. If what has been talked about comes true, the price for the EESU should come down to under $500 for a 1KWh unit.
@DB, I think you may be missing a point, the agreements are only for marketing to specific types of vehicles, they have not given up any manufacturing rights as I understand it.
Question, early on, it was stated that the lower temperature limit was -30C, this was later modified to -20C Does anyone know if that is still true? And if so, what exactly is the limitation? Will operating them at below -20C cause catastrophic failure? Reduction in capacity, what?