Blogger: Tell me what you think about EEStor.
Andrew Burke: The whole question has to do with whether it's possible
to generate high dielectric materials that maintain high dielectric
constants like 20 or 30K up to high field strengths. If that's
possible then the calculations in the patent disclosure are.....I've
been able to replicate them ok, it's pretty straight forward. The
question is whether you can....whether it's physically possible to
have a material that will maintain it's very high dielectric constant
at very high fields. And the consensus of all the experts that I've
talked to in the field, say that it's not possible. And Richard Weir
has chosen to not make available any test data which contradicts what
the experts say.
B: I thought he provided that to Zenn Motors and Kleiner.
AB: I dont believe that.
B: Why not?
AB: I went there with him with some people who wanted to invest in
his company and he just absolutely refused to show us any test data.
B: So you've been on site at EEStor?
AB: That's right. I've been on site. I spent a couple hours with him
in the conference room and had a very nice tour of his laboratory.
It's a very nice laboratory. Its very well equipped. But he refused
to give us any technical information that would confirm the dielectric
properties of his materials. And all the people that I've talked to
....its extremely unlikely. But I won't say it's impossible because
that's a very dangerous thing to say. What these people tell
me....its extremely unlikely that it's possible.
B: So you had a company approach you....
AB: I had a group that was willing to invest some millions of dollars
and he just refused to offer us any experimental evidence that the
materials that he has exhibits the dielectric properties necessary to
make possible devices that he says he can build. That's about as much
as I can tell you
B: Are you under NDA on any of this? Can I quote you?
AB: No. Yes, you can quote me. I won't tell you who I went with. But I did
spend...we did spend, a number of us, some time with him and I had a
chance to ask him lots of questions.
B: How did you find his ability to answer questions?
AB: For the critical things, he was just not willing. You know,
look, you don't have to make big. People don't start off making big
devices with new materials. They make small devices and prove that the
small devices function the way that you would expect them to function
with the materials that you're using. I make small super capacitors
all the time. The ones I make are a centimeter across....or 2
centimeters in diameter. And I can tell whether a particular carbon
materials I have will behave well in supercapacitors just by making
small devices. He could do the same thing with his materials, ok?
And show the world that, yeah, this stuff does what it's supposed to
do, this material.
B: Is that a traditional practice for someone in his position?
AB: Yeah sure, it's Barium Titanate, the material is well known. People
have been trying to make this high....and they have, they've made
higher capacitance devices than normal. But he's trying to make
something that has energy density better than a lithium battery. ok?
And if you look at his patent, it has all these calculations and if
you use the dimensions he gave, the thicknesses and so forth, it's
possible to replicate those calculations. But you're assuming material
properties. The question is can you develop materials with those
possibilities?
B: And when you asked him that what did he say?
AB: He says yes of course. But he shows you no data! [pause]
Everybody that...you can look in the literature and find, that as you
increase the field, the electric field, the dielectric constant falls
off very rapidly. And in order to get the energy density that he's
talking about, you have to go to very high voltages, you have to go to
2 or 3000 volts and when you do that the dielectric constant changes,
it drastically decreases. Since there's so much skepticism, there's
extreme skepticism. The way you dispel skepticism in science is to
show data that illustrates the contrary, right?
B: Would doing so be a tip off to competitors?
AB: Well, it would show that it's possible.
B: But what would he gain from doing that at this point?
AB: Well, if he needs additional uh......it's not like started this
last week, he's been at this a number of years now. ....he'd have
unlimited money. (laughing) That's what he would get from it
unlimited money essentially.
B: If he provided the test data?
AB: He doesn't have to provide the test data to the world, ok? But he
won't provide the test data to anybody...as far as I know.
--------------
AB: That's all I can tell you. We tried to get some data from him and
he claimed he had it but he wouldn't show it to us.
B: To clarify, the math and calculations all look good but for you
its all about the materials?
AB: That's right, a material at high ...ordinarily a high dielectric
material is maybe a 1000 or so. but he's talking about 20 to 30000 and
he has to maintain those very high dielectric properties up to very
high fields. Millions of volts per meter.
B: You sat across the table from him. Did he miss anything
fundamental? Was he knowledgeable?
AB: He's had previous experience with magnetic materials. I think he's
pretty well trained. But what his motives are, true feelings.... He puts on a very confident front. No doubt
about that.
B: I assume you started with some basic questions and built up to more advanced concepts?
AB: Well he knows what the issues are.
B: But when you pressed him for test data....how did he say no? How did the conversation go?
AB: his position effectively was it's not necessary for me to show you
test data, this is so good you should be willing to ....not ask
because the potential is so great.
B: Did he admit there were still risks or that he's moving forward and
all he has to do is build it?
AB: He gives you the impression that all he has to do is move forward
and build it. He has not made...as far as I knew from the time I was
there...he had equipment set up to make small devices but he had not
used it yet, that was the next step.
B: What about the purity? What do you make of it?
AB: Well, purity is a big issue because......but that's only part
of.....that's been some of the problems in the past, when you're
making very thin devices when you go to very high voltages that this
stuff breaks down if you go to.....because of impurities. It has to
be...I suspect impurities are necessary but that's not sufficient
information. He apparently had this stuff tested at Southwest
Research Institute. That you can confirm. And that's probably
necessary but that's not the whole thing.
B: For your money, you would want to see some test data?
AB: I want to see some test data. I'd just like to see.....What you'd
like to see is some capacitance data for some small device that as you
increase voltage on the device....[pause] ....look there is no doubt
that in a capacitor like this..the energy stored is 1/2 times the
voltage squared, ok? The question is what happens to the capacitance
as you change the voltage? In a usual ceramic capacitor, C is
independent of voltage. In a carbon-carbon ultra-capacitor, C is a
weak function of voltage. The evidence seems to be that in this case,
that at best, C goes like 1 over the voltage....so the higher the
voltage the lower the capacitance...and it's likely that it's even
more.....because the capacitance goes proportional to the dielectric
constant. The capacitance is a dielectric constant times the area
divided by the thickness. The area and the thickness are God given
when you put the thing together. You know that right? The thing is
what happens to the dielectric constant?
[pause]
All you have to do to convince anybody is put together a small device.
And test it at various voltages. And you see what happens to the
capacitance.
B: What will happen if this doesn't work, will it blow up or will it fry?
AB: No, it'll just get that you don't get.....Look I said the energy
stored in a capacitor goes up as the voltage squared. That's why you
have to go to very high voltages. you have to make sure the material
doesn't break down. that you can go to those voltages. If the material
breaks down then of course you'll get....you'll suddenly get a very
high current. That could lead to some interesting problem
(laugh)...you'll get a very high current and the thing could get hot.
But as I say, the thing is very simple: what is required to convince
the world or convince investors, that this is gonna is going to work.
Even if you can make a small one, that doesn't mean you can make a big
one. Because you're making material that is a few microns thick and
when you do that, you make something that is a centimeter across or
makes something that's 50 or 100 centimeters across, that's a horse of
a different color. But at least you've answered questions relative to
the material properties.
B: now let me ask you this....
AB....hey, I gotta go....
B: If he were to provide test data that were reasonable, what would be
your reaction to that?
AB: I would say the problem is not a problem of basic science but of
engineering....being able to prepare the larger...you know, scale
up...
B: manufacture a million of these...
AB: Yeah, manufacturing and so forth. and then if you can make a small
qty of materials, then you have to be able to make a large qty of
materials at relatively low cost. But at least its not a problem of
defying the laws of physics.
B: What do you say to people who are looking at EEStor and scratching
their head? I get emails from people who say they have a significant
investment in Zenn Motors.
Stock.
AB: .....all I can say is I wouldn't put mine there.
B: Is it okay if as I go through all of this, maybe I have a follow up
question, can I call you back?
AB: Sure.
B: Okay sir, thanks so much for your time to day I appreciate it.
AB: Okay, bye bye.
