TheEEStory.com

hey satya51,

ah com'on - spill the beans! :)
all (us) nerds wanna' know the secret!
we won't tell a soul, promise!

the graph (alone!?) would give it away?
showing something non-linear?
showing linear changes in permittivity?
the particulars of when and at what rate the dielectric saturates?

The published patent application says "permittivity highly insensitive to voltage and temperature", for the 0, 3,500 and 5,000 Volt levels.

Last edited Sat, 09 Aug 2008, 2:36am by nekote

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to bill300,

Thanks very much for shedding some light on why some might not sign a NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement).

If they were a potential competitor, the NDA should compromise their ability to move forward on their product, if it is at all similar?

And why / how it might work for the VC (Venture Capital) groups.

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It is a problem as my interest is now in Eestor's competitiveness. The chemistry was the big milestone, we should see commercialization without hurdles as the mechanics is old technology with a few details, which Weir says is done., All that is left is just time (patents, electronics, raw material, and logistics).

May I make a quick reco. on format. Can we have an ongoing dialouge topic that all comments are posted to. This one seems to be the one. Then if you want to take your post and file it under the appropriate heading afterwards for future reference. The only reason i say that is because i like to read all the posts (both scientific and stock related). It becomes too cumbersome to go around to 8-10 topics trying to figure out what you have read, and what you haven't.

Satya, if you have figured it out, i would hope you would use discretion. It isn't worth it just to prove to a few on this list what the answer is. And I guarantee you that although there seems to be critics in the scientific community, they are definitely a few tuning in.....for the "what if" factor. I have believed Wier and the related investors' claims from the begining.

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ahhh, so true.
Well, write yourself a note as to your "discovery".
And see if it comes true.

The chemistry was the big milestone

That clue sounds like getting the doping mixture, ala Hansen's patent, was the key.

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nekote, thanks for posting the wet chemistry patents. Know anyone who could cost out the wet chemistry raw materials so we get an idea as to how much Eestor would have in an EESU?

OntarioInvestor, will Zenn actually be able to translate their investment in Eestor into big cash and us investors tag along?

If the science is proven to work, then i would be able to assure with 99% that Zenn stock will appreciate considerably. Most likely scenarios:

1) Zenn puts out the vehicles on their own to Asia/Europe first where safety restrictions are not as stringent, and eventually N.A. follows suit under public outcry.

2) Zenn produces the drivetrains and licenses to the big three to produce.

3) Zenn realizes that they cannot do the production that they need, and they sell off/lease their rights for the up to 1,600 category. At this point they would have made a handsome penny, and they look at retrofitting.

4) Clifford/investors gets an offer that they can't refuse, and sells out to the big three.

For every scenario that I can think of there are many more alternatives, but if the science works, then you will be rewarded handsomely for your investment.

I have said all along, than in my professional opinion, this really has never looked like a scam to me, not in the least. You just don't act the way these guys have (apply for patents, set up Nas/TSX listings in motion, get investors with the reputations of those that are involved, get the type of people that are involved with their board, set up commercial production operations). To me it seems like any other hi-tech company that knows they have found something, and know that it will be sought after, and copied once they put it out there, so they are really trying to cover off all bases before moving forward.

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Nekote,

You are welcome.

I also appreciate your diligence and many of the other postings. Although I am Not an engineer, a few among you seem to appreciate the possibilities, rather than simply applying their own static knowledge.

The only snippet I've stumbled across as far as raw material costs came from http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=829, currently about 3/4 towards the bottom.

part of Cobraphx's comment
One good example is the cost of raw materials, the lithium in Lithium Ion batteries is $8500 a ton, the barium titanate the EESU needs is made from barium carbonate $25 a ton and titanium dioxide $10 a ton. Quite an advantage when your raw material costs 350 times less than the competitors.

350 times? (an accidental 0 at the end?)
y_po responded to my post and said those were ridiculous numbers, if I remember.

I don't remember which thread that was in.
Maybe someone else has the threads in a way that could be searched, for y_po's comment.

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zawy wrote:

nekote, I believe what Burke and others would like to see is a graph of k verses voltage. It's supposed to go down,

Please explain why. The permittivity (k) increases with voltage as more and more atoms become better and better aligned. When they're all aligned, it reaches a maximum. One expects a steep curve at the beginning, and an asymptotic approach to a maximum value; approximately a plateau in k, not a steady decrease. And that's what the experimental evidence shows, and what the nature of ferroelectricity leads one to expect. So please explain this counter-intuitive "non-breakdown breakdown" for me.

satya51 wrote:

Marcus,
I maybe dreaming, but I think I figured out how it works, and if I am correct which I am sure of, a voltage versus permittivity graph would give everything away in a heart beat. I am shocked it is so simple.

Does it have anything to do with pore size?

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whatsyourevidence,

thanks. well, the two different reactions may have been in response to two different information disclosures...dont know for sure...

Right. The feel I got was that both reactions (positive and negative) were in response to mere talk, discussion, "shop talk" so to speak - without a lot of data/charts etc changing hands. Didn't really make sense. Must've been something more to it.

Sayta51, you dog :)

So trifle with us a bit more please: what is it about 1) your knowledge background, and 2) the trickiness (yet simplicity) of the "solution" that allowed you to discover the answer, but is not apparent to y_po et al and the recently interviewed skeptical experts? Can tell us that without giving up the specifics?

On one other note on materials costs, I believe I remember reading 25$/kg for BT, and then seeing it misquoted as $25/ton. Differently quoted, I should say, I don't know which one is right or wrong. But yall will have to look that up maybe using the blog search, or it may've been on one of the other sites - it stuck in my mind however because the big quote followed right on the heels of the small one, and I knew one must be wrong.

edit - obviously $25/ton for something you have to dig up is ridiculous. Garden soil costs more than $25/ton I'm pretty sure. $25/kg sounds better for BT. But I have no frame of refernce - except buying garden soil.

Last edited Sat, 09 Aug 2008, 12:46pm by wye

BT for around $20 per kg if you buy in bulk.

http://www.advancedmaterials.us/5622-ON4.htm

whatsyourevidence, the key to material cost is the cost of the wet chemicals as they are the raw materials in Eestor's process. Any help in calculating real bulk costs of the wet chemicals used to make one kg of CMBT would be insightful. Their wet chemical production components are found in the patents nekote posted.

My back ground is I am a retired over the hill EE.

You can see the logical paradox of letting the cat out of the bag.

And what would their reasoning be for not signing an NDA? It's not an uncommon feature of any business relationship, whether the process is patented or not. The only reason that the investors might have not sign it would be to steal the idea or Weir put up unreasonable terms. But as it worked out, they get nothing. At least the NDA would enable them to invest, which they clearly wanted to do. Seems much more likely they were not offered an NDA, whether because of paranoia (NDAs, like patents, can be expensive to enforce) or lack of data to show.

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Sayta51,
Can you tell me then what is wrong with my simulation?

nekote wrote:

The only snippet I've stumbled across as far as raw material costs came from http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=829, currently about 3/4 towards the bottom.

part of Cobraphx's comment
One good example is the cost of raw materials, the lithium in Lithium Ion batteries is $8500 a ton, the barium titanate the EESU needs is made from barium carbonate $25 a ton and titanium dioxide $10 a ton. Quite an advantage when your raw material costs 350 times less than the competitors.

350 times? (an accidental 0 at the end?)
y_po responded to my post and said those were ridiculous numbers, if I remember.

I don't remember which thread that was in.
Maybe someone else has the threads in a way that could be searched, for y_po's comment.

This really is rather easy to determine. A quick search gives

$21.60 a Kg at 1Tonne quantities

http://www.advancedmaterials.us/5622-ON4.htm

As a reference it appears nickel runs $7.99/lb or $17.60/Kg (2008/08/08).

See http://www.kitcometals.com/

Robert

Last edited Sat, 09 Aug 2008, 6:11pm by Robert

I think maybe Wier must "Absolutely" Trust Anyone he reveals this secret to. Contracts, NDA's etc... can not possibly protect leakage. this is a very sensitive area. This knowlege could easily pass into the industry without anyone ever knowing who leaked it. there are companies who would pay literally Billions for this competitive edge. I mean think about it, What would the Chinese pay for this info if it is real? will the Chinese honor the patent rights? the Apple Ipod and Iphone are the largest counterfit items on the planet.

to let Anyone in on the secret you can not explicidly trust, would be a risk that could have devistating consequenses for EEstor. this would be a risk I myself would not be willing to take with a breakthrough of this magnitude.

though I can not guarantee that EEstor Tech is fourth coming, I do understand the reason for Wier's apprehension to give any info.

in fact, I seem to understand and agree with almost Everything Wier has done and said throughout the EEstor saga. If I was Wier and I knew for sure I had this tech, however far fetched it may seem to outsiders, I would handle it the same exact way.

Robert,

$21.60 / KG at 1 tonne quantities

That place, advanced materials, sell it in 1,000 and 10,000 ton quantities?

EEStor / who ever runs the production lines is going to need about 12,500 tons per month, 12 months per year, for every 1 million 300 pound EESUs per year.

At that kind of volume, don't need an in house industrial scale facility? Either build your own, from scratch, or pretty much buy out somebody who at least has the beginings of such a facility?

Otherwise you have to contract it out, at long term bulk rates. And have substantial rights as to monitoring / insuring the quality?

Last edited Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 1:22am by nekote

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nekote, but isn't Weir adamant that the CMBT be produced by his patented wet chemistry method because of purity and particle size distribution?

nekote wrote:

Robert,

$21.60 / KG at 1 tonne quantities

That place, advanced materials, sell it in 1,000 and 10,000 ton quantities?

Looks like they would.

nekote wrote:

EEStor / who ever runs the production lines is going to need about 12,500 tons per month, 12 months per year, to for every 1 million 300 pound EESUs per year.

At that kind of volume, don't need an in house industrial scale facility? Either build your own, from scratch, or pretty much buy out somebody who at least has the beginings of such a facility?

Otherwise you have to contract it out, at long term bulk rates. And have substantial rights as to monitoring / insuring the quality?

Bear in mind that the standard capacitors weigh on the order of 0.1g apiece and barium titanate will be a major part of that. So a single Kg will be enough for 2 reels of 5000 parts. I suspect the major portion of the market is for capacitors. 12,000 tonnes is a lot of capacitors (20 million reels). I suspect that demand is likely to be sufficient to drive the price up if it were to come to fruition. On the other hand I don't know what the current production rate actually is.

If a typical electronic device used 100 mlcc caps that would provide enough for something like a billion devices. If I'm off by a few orders of magnitude it still looks like a significant perturbation.

Robert

BTW...for any of our american friends that are not fond of NBC only showing the time delay olympic coverage, may i recommend

http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/

It is our national channel "Canadian Broadcasting Corporation", and it had 8 direct feeds online that cover virutally any event in real time online. I was recently in Havana, and i was socializing with a couple of CNN correspondents that reminded me how lucky I was to be privy to such independent journalism (not that they didn't enjoy Murdoch/Turner's perspective ;)

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Speaking of experts:

eestorblog wrote:

Andrew Burke:
And the consensus of all the experts that I've
talked to in the field, say that it's not possible.

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I maybe dreaming, but I think I figured out how it works, and if I am correct which I am sure of, a voltage versus permittivity graph would give everything away in a heart beat. I am shocked it is so simple.

O, do tell...:)

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Well....are you going to share your thoughts further?

There are people here that you could bounce thoughts off of....try Dan Plante or Nekote

hillcountry,

Just to clarify, I was quoting satya51 in my post, and I see that by the time I had posted, he had already engaged further with Nekote et al above.

I will now go read...and probably not understand most of it...:)

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It seems to me that the saturation effect would be a function not of voltage but of field strength. To demonstrate the concept he would need to build a capacitor that could maintain the advertised permittivity at 3500 volts. The kicker is that the spacing between plates would have to be 10 micrometers. He is proposing to build a 30 Farad 3500 volt capacitor in a volume of 30 liters. He should be able to demonstrate a one milliFarad 3500 volt capacitor with a volume of one cubic centimeter. If the full-size unit will store 52 kwh, the demonstration unit should hold about 6 kilowatt seconds. Discharge it through 30 ordinary incandescent light bulbs rated at 40 watts . Connect them in series to make a resistor (1.2 kw, 3.6kV, 10kohm). His capacitor should keep them lit for five seconds. A more objective test would use a resistor and oscilloscope. But, light bulbs would demonstrate that he is at least in the ball park. Radio Shack does not stock kilowatt resistors.