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Forbes magazine: "Why Do We Worship the Electric Car?" « Transportation « Industry Applications
 
Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 6:15pm #1
Hammer
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Somewhat sobering editorial in the current issue of Forbes magazine .... who just picked ExxonMobil as their Green Company of the Year for their sudden interest in natural gas.

William Baldwin, Editor wrote:

You want to get carbon out of the atmosphere? There's an easy way to do it. Pay an electric utility to throttle back one of its older coal-fueled plants and fire up an efficient turbine burning clean natural gas. Gas is more expensive than coal (per unit of energy) but spits out not much more than half the carbon. The higher fuel cost translates into something in the neighborhood of $20 per ton of avoided CO2, according to calculations from EPRI, the Electric Power Research Institute.

The hero of this tale is Rex Tillerson, the boss at ExxonMobil, who is betting big on natural gas (see Forbes story by Christopher Helman, "ExxonMobil: Green Company of the Year"). What? That old fossil of a company is an environmental savior? It will be one, if we let it. A carbon tax or permit system that prices CO2 at $20 or more is a win for gas producers.

I'll concede that Exxon's drift into gas was inspired more by the difficulty of finding petroleum than by any love for the environment. But the numbers are undeniable. Twenty bucks per CO2 ton would be a good price for greenhouse gas reduction. That, moreover, is for switching existing power plants. When you're building new plants, gas, because of its lower capital costs, is competitive with coal these days. The greenhouse benefit in this case is free.

Now let's look at a bad way to reduce atmospheric carbon: subsidizing electric cars. The federal government will chip in $7,500 to the cost of a Nissan Leaf BEV or a General Motors Volt PHEV (see Forbes story by Joann Muller, "Nissan's Plug-In Gamble"). A Leaf will displace a little sedan burning maybe 5,000 gallons of gas over its 150,000-mile life span. That much gasoline produces not even 50 tons of carbon dioxide. Don't believe that the electric is an "emission-free" vehicle; the juice comes from somewhere, and today the incremental source of electric power is going to be a fossil-fueled plant. You'd be generous to the electric car industry in assuming that the car, the power plant and the charger in your garage are, taken together, four times as efficient as a gasoline car engine. The math is simple. Using a Leaf to reduce carbon dioxide costs taxpayers $200 a ton. Throw in the subsidy for the charger and the price goes to $250.

Congress is debating whether to extend the Cash for Clunkers subsidy. Applied to a ramshackle pickup nearing the end of its useful life, this handout is good for CO2 elimination at $1,700 a ton. Biofuels are probably even more expensive than that as carbon savers.

Crazy, isn't it? Understand something. In this country environmentalism is a religion, not a science. As columnist Peter Huber has explained in our pages, the very thesis that atmospheric carbon is bad is a matter of faith, not science. In this religion the forces of evil are represented by Exxon's dark, satanic wells and the forces of good by things labeled "emission free" and "renewable." Numbers don't enter the picture.

Link: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0824/opinions...


Mark Twain:
"Ain't what you don't know that gets you in trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

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Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 6:23pm #2
manthan33
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the thing about electricity is that it can be produced in almost any way possible....a lot in green ways.


EESU, probably, does not exist.

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Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 6:32pm #3
EEventually
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Forbes magazine .... who just picked ExxonMobil as their Green Company of the Year for their sudden interest in natural gas.

This really cracks me up in more ways that I can say.


“Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled.”- Michael Crichton

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Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 6:38pm #4
Generic
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"The electric car just moves the CO2 emmisions elsewhere."
- No sh*t Sherlock! Love that line from naysayers.

Why is out of the question to update the grid which is currently wasteful whether or not EVs exist to utilize it?

Why does it always have to be about environmentalism? Does investing in energy savings not make sense otherwise? Is conservationism a bad word too?

What's harder to maintain, update and regulate from an emissions/fuel use stand point: a fleet of ~270,000,000 vehicles (estimate from Wiki) or ~17,500 power plants (http://tinyurl.com/nawtu)?


√-1/10ⁿ (It's imaginary, but commercialization is in the bag.)

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Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 7:05pm #5
Tec
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"The electric car just moves the CO2 emmisions elsewhere."

Be fair. It may crack you up, but there is truth in it. It may or may not emit less CO2 overall (we can argue about it), but there is no such thing as an emission free car, given that 50% of the power generated originates in coal.

All the power generated is added together in the grid and you cannot elect to only use power from renewables except in a few locations where thats all there is.

As to conservation, that too is an arguable matter. EVs certainly result in less oil use, but do they reduce the rate of consumption of fossil fuels overall? Rather less certain!


On the anniversary of his death, I honor GK Chesterton & YOU SHOULD TOO!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton

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Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 7:14pm #6
Y_Not?
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Love it when the Forbes set waxes environmentalist in their own interests. Any guesses why they aren't celebrating the money consumers will save--where are those numbers?

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Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 7:18pm #7
Lensman
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William Baldwin, Editor wrote:

Now let's look at a bad way to reduce atmospheric carbon: subsidizing electric cars. <snip> Don't believe that the electric is an "emission-free" vehicle; the juice comes from somewhere, and today the incremental source of electric power is going to be a fossil-fueled plant.

Hey, Tec could take lessons in sophistry from this guy!

Reality check: There is enough unused night-time power available for 80% of the cars in the U.S. to be converted to pure electric drive without building one single additional power plant. And most plants run at a fixed output day and night, because it's so inefficient to slow them down and speed them up.

In other words, so long as the EV is charged during off-peak hours, the EV *will* be an emission-free vehicle. The electric power plant isn't going to burn one single gram more coal or natural gas to generate more power during off-peak hours.

Now, regarding the larger point that tax money spent on EVs is less cost-effective in reducing carbon than tax money spend on carbon credits: Okay, but the problem with that argument is it assumes the only reason for tax money supporting EVs is to reduce carbon footprint. Since I don't believe we can really slow global warming significantly by reducing carbon emissions, I think the issues of dependence on foreign oil and the balance of trade are more important. And converting from coal to natural gas fired power plants isn't going to help those situations in the slightest. But switching from gas-guzzlers to EVs *will* help us end our dependence on foreign oil.

Last edited Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 7:32pm by Lensman


The more electric cars will be made, the cheaper they will be. The more internal-combustion cars are made, the more expensive oil is. --Shai Agassi, Better Place

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Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 7:35pm #8
manthan33
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Steve Forbes is a fucking idiot.


EESU, probably, does not exist.

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Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 7:48pm #9
Robw
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EEventually wrote:

Forbes magazine .... who just picked ExxonMobil as their Green Company of the Year for their sudden interest in natural gas.

This really cracks me up in more ways that I can say.

Couldn't agree more...so does that mean that Chuck Manson will soon be picked 'Man of the Year' by Time?


The Thorium Grand Plan

Lensman scale value = 9/5 - I reserve the right to change my mind at any time.

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Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 9:59pm #10
EEventually
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helter skelter, baby


“Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled.”- Michael Crichton

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Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 10:16pm #11
MountainManMike
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Lensman wrote:

Reality check: There is enough unused night-time power available for 80% of the cars in the U.S. to be converted to pure electric drive without building one single additional power plant. And most plants run at a fixed output day and night, because it's so inefficient to slow them down and speed them up.

You dont speed up or slow down a power plant, they operate at only one speed to output 60hz (US). The power output is increased or decreased though.

Lensman wrote:


In other words, so long as the EV is charged during off-peak hours, the EV *will* be an emission-free vehicle. The electric power plant isn't going to burn one single gram more coal or natural gas to generate more power during off-peak hours.

False - If the power is not being consumed then the power plants DO throttle back. They just kind-of idle (pour less coal to the fire), therefore EV charging at night would definitely increase the carbon output over what is burnt at night now.

Lensman wrote:


... I think the issues of dependence on foreign oil and the balance of trade are more important. And converting from coal to natural gas fired power plants isn't going to help those situations in the slightest. But switching from gas-guzzlers to EVs *will* help us end our dependence on foreign oil.

False - Generating power using domestic Natural Gas would decrease our dependence on foreign oil.

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Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 10:20pm #12
Hammer
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Lensman wrote:

Now, regarding the larger point that tax money spent on EVs is less cost-effective in reducing carbon than tax money spend on carbon credits: Okay, but the problem with that argument is it assumes the only reason for tax money supporting EVs is to reduce carbon footprint. Since I don't believe we can really slow global warming significantly by reducing carbon emissions, I think the issues of dependence on foreign oil and the balance of trade are more important. And converting from coal to natural gas fired power plants isn't going to help those situations in the slightest. But switching from gas-guzzlers to EVs *will* help us end our dependence on foreign oil.

Lensman -- totally agree with you on these points. If we save ZERO carbon emissions by converting to EVs, it's still worth doing.

And few should object to any strategy that promotes a readily-available lower-carbon North American fuel source -- that is, nat gas. If you go back and read that Forbes article again, that's what they're trying to say with their award to ExxonMobil.

BTW, I'm also a proponent of the Pickens plan. Natural gas fueling of trucks and other fleet vehicles (vans, taxis, etc.) operating within metro areas just makes good sense .... until we can get enough EVs into service, which is going to be quite a few years.


Mark Twain:
"Ain't what you don't know that gets you in trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

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Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 10:21pm #13
evnow
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Steve Forbes - someone who considers global warming a "myth" - and makes George Bush look like a moderate.


http://twitter.com/EVNow

EEStor - Failure : 10%, Useful ED : 85%, Equal or Better ED than Li : 5%
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over PR, for Nature cannot be fooled - Richard Feynman

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Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 10:30pm #14
ricinro
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so if exxon is supplying natural gas to the power stations that are efficiently producing electricity 24/7 because of the load leveling aspect of electric cars then this is worse than burning fossil fuels in ICEs and power plants and generating much more carbon?

Why harvest energy from the sun and wind etc. if you can't use that energy. Electricity is legal tender for all energy. EVs get us there.


Thanks BTV for the blog

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Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 11:46pm #15
antiguajohn
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Gentlemen,

I believe you are missing the true mission of these bootlickers to the established fossil fuel industry.

They enjoy the way the system is currently structured, they can essentially command any price they desire, especially with the imminent arrival of "peak oil", and also governments can tax fuel without most consumers being aware of it.

Every solution they postulate involves you having to come to them to purchase, gas, diesel, bio diesel, synfuel, methane, hydrogen, etc..

In other words, they are in control, you're not!

The great fear of the industry, are the consequences resulting from the wide spread use of BEVs (Battery Electric Vehicles).

They fear that consumers will discover with thin film solar cells, (predicted to be in the 41 to 62 cents per watt, or less, within three to five years) can with a simple grid-tie system, feed electricity onto the grid in the daytime, (when rates are highest) and take the power back at night, (when rates are lowest) to charge their BEVs, the net effect will be carbon neutral and will vastly reduce profits for utilities and oil companies and force government to tax consumers in an open obvious way, which will be political dynamite for anyone seeking re-election.

This scenario already occurred in the late 90s when California mandated a percentage of production had to be zero emission vehicles, many consumers, who had purchased BEVs, (Toyota RAV4 electric, GM EV1, Ford Ranger electric, etc.)installed grid-tied solar systems on their roof, even with the high cost of solar cells at the time, many claimed the saved fuel costs soon paid for the setup.

This frightened the car and oil companies so much they started a lobbying campaign to have the law rescinded, see link to "Who Killed The Electric Car".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Ele...

As to their lie about "you're just moving pollution from the tailpipe to the power plants smokestack", they just assume you will not know enough physics and engineering to know it's a lot easier to control emissions from one smoke stack than two hundred thousand tail pipes.

Of course, this is why EEStor is such a game changer, remember, that energy is a 6 trillion dollar a year business.

Imagine you take that kind of money away from the richest one percent of the planet's elite and redistribute it using the old capitalist concept of "creative destruction", to the rest of humanity, with their solar cells, wind mills and EEStor units.

If you think tobacco and now the health care industry are putting up a fight to maintain their obscene profits, just wait till you see what big energy will come up with.

If you are in the fossil fuel business, and EEStor becomes a reality, be afraid, be very afraid.

antiguajohn


When the facts change, I change my mind," John Maynard Keynes once observed in a debate. "What do you do, sir?" Why, sir, they take no notice of changed facts and so are untroubled by such questions.

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Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 12:00am #16
antiguajohn
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Capitalism is the best system so far,
for generating more money for more people,
than any other system so far .........

BUT!

We don't have a capitalist system,
we have a "crony capitalist system"
that has been "gamed" to benefit insiders.

antiguajohn


When the facts change, I change my mind," John Maynard Keynes once observed in a debate. "What do you do, sir?" Why, sir, they take no notice of changed facts and so are untroubled by such questions.

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Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 12:17am #17
manthan33
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antiguajohn wrote:

Capitalism is the best system so far,
for generating more money for more people,
than any other system so far .........

BUT!

We don't have a capitalist system,
we have a "crony capitalist system"
that has been "gamed" to benefit insiders.

antiguajohn

you are also an idiot, well slightly.

capitalism is a road to the best system.

capitalism makes things more efficient at the expense of people and the environment.

I honestly would rather pay 5$ more for a pizza with Fresh-ground whole-wheat flour, with the profit of pizza hut or dominos they could probably give everyone good real flour. That profit goes back into expanding a company and branding there logos everywhere with the executives make 300x more than the little guy who works 10x...(i just ate pizza so i thought of that analogy)

Last edited Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 12:27am by manthan33


EESU, probably, does not exist.

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Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 12:54am #18
Freddy
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evnow wrote:

Steve Forbes - someone who considers global warming a "myth" ...

He's right.

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Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 12:58am #19
WalksOnDirt
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Freddy wrote:

evnow wrote:

Steve Forbes - someone who considers global warming a "myth" ...

He's right.


No, he isn't.


Deasil is the right way to go.

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Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 1:02am #20
evnow
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Freddy wrote:

evnow wrote:

Steve Forbes - someone who considers global warming a "myth" ...

He's right.

Oh yes - Rush & Cheney on one side, thousands of scientists on the other.

I guess you are a creationist & flat earther too.


http://twitter.com/EVNow

EEStor - Failure : 10%, Useful ED : 85%, Equal or Better ED than Li : 5%
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over PR, for Nature cannot be fooled - Richard Feynman

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Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 1:17am #21
Daniel R Plante
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EEventually wrote:

Forbes magazine .... who just picked ExxonMobil as their Green Company of the Year for their sudden interest in natural gas.

This really cracks me up in more ways that I can say.



Coffee came out my nose.


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com

"...the nation which controls space can control the Earth."
- John F. Kennedy October 24, 1960

Electricity: P.S.U. - "Produce it locally, Store it locally, Use it locally"
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Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 1:38am #22
eeinterested
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I was kinda worried about global warming until Steve Forbes, Exxon, Rush Limbaugh and Fox News straightened me out. Now I feel better!

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Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 1:45am #23
manthan33
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http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/01/19/ec...

97% of people who do global warming research believe in global warming

but according to fox news the science is still being debated...

i believe 3% of the population is mormon, just by that measure we should automatically discount 3% of the population of anything idiots/fucking morons.


EESU, probably, does not exist.

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Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 2:33am #24
seslaprime
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the whole article is complete FUD. so Now according to the article, if we want CO2 free energy, we must pay a premium. what a bunch of garbage. this guy sounds as uninformed as tec. this is the propaganda we must endure until various technologies get to the main stream.

it is all a propaganda con game to get more tax payer and government funds.

Well, at least I and many many others have enough insight to be able to side step this money stealing con game. but who will protect the tax payer?

I have a feeling there are more "smart" people out there than the fudsters think. pretty sure these "suggestions" for More pollution spewing energy ideas will get squashed.

Thank God for Solar, Hydro, Thermal, Nuke and game changing energy storage technology or we might well have gotten roped into this garbage thinking.

sounds like some people think all there is for energy conversion is Coal and Fuel burning plants. talk about people stuck in the dark ages.

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Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 2:42am #25
manthan33
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seslaprime wrote:

the whole article is complete FUD. so Now according to the article, if we want CO2 free energy, we must pay a premium. what a bunch of garbage. this guy sounds as uninformed as tec. this is the propaganda we must endure until various technologies get to the main stream.

it is all a propaganda con game to get more tax payer and government funds.

Well, at least I and many many others have enough insight to be able to side step this money stealing con game. but who will protect the tax payer?

I have a feeling there are more "smart" people out there than the fudsters think. pretty sure these "suggestions" for More pollution spewing energy ideas will get squashed.

Thank God for Solar, Hydro, Thermal, Nuke and game changing energy storage technology or we might well have gotten roped into this garbage thinking.

sounds like some people think all there is for energy conversion is Coal and Fuel burning plants. talk about people stuck in the dark ages.

propaganda to raise taxes....god, do you honestly believe that?


EESU, probably, does not exist.

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Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 3:05am #26
antiguajohn
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Our farming systems are "open loop" systems, oil being the input used to produce fertilizer to feed the crops.

A hundred years ago, 1 calorie of oil, (used to power a tractor) produced 6 calories of corn.

Today it takes 11 calories of oil, mostly converted to fertilizer to produce 1 calorie of corn and the idiots want to now convert corn into ethanol to run a car?

Which part of a perpetual motion machine doesn't work, don't they understand?

Every natural ecosystem on this planet is a closed loop system, if it wasn't, evolutionary inefficiency doomed it to oblivion.

I am currently working on a proposal to close the loop in Antigua & Barbuda, recycling everything into compost for fertilizer, no imports needed.

I suspect it may be possible as the Chinese have been doing this for over 5000 years, without degrading their soils, compare that to the western US which has lost 70% of topsoil in areas in just 100 years.

My slogan is:

Polution is the solution,
as long as you recycle.

antiguajohn


When the facts change, I change my mind," John Maynard Keynes once observed in a debate. "What do you do, sir?" Why, sir, they take no notice of changed facts and so are untroubled by such questions.

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Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 4:13am #27
Freddy
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manthan33 wrote:

97% of people who do global warming research believe in global warming

Translation : 97% of the people whose employment depends of global warming alarmism think we should be alarmed about global warming.
Well, fancy that ...

manthan33 wrote:

but according to fox news the science is still being debated...

I've never seen fox news, so I'll take your word for it. Instead, I follow the scientific debate, which the rest of the news never covers.
So far, the supposed justifications for the alarmist position has been consistently shown to be rubbish.

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Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 4:34am #28
Freddy
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evnow wrote:

Freddy wrote:

evnow wrote:

Steve Forbes - someone who considers global warming a "myth" ...

He's right.

Oh yes - Rush & Cheney on one side, thousands of scientists on the other.
I guess you are a creationist & flat earther too.

Don't be rude. I am neither religious nor an idiot. I am, on the other hand, a maths graduate with a low opinion of people who abuse statistics for the purposes of marketing.

What ? You didn't realise how much of the supposed evidence for global warming is based on bogus statistical studies of grossly imperfect data ? You mean you haven't looked into the science behind the biggest ever threat to civilisation, but have been willing to take other people's word for it ? Oh, dear. How very, umm, faith-based ...

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Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 4:36am #29
manthan33
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Freddy wrote:

evnow wrote:

Freddy wrote:

evnow wrote:

Steve Forbes - someone who considers global warming a "myth" ...

He's right.

Oh yes - Rush & Cheney on one side, thousands of scientists on the other.
I guess you are a creationist & flat earther too.

Don't be rude. I am neither religious nor an idiot. I am, on the other hand, a maths graduate with a low opinion of people who abuse statistics for the purposes of marketing.

What ? You didn't realise how much of the supposed evidence for global warming is based on bogus statistical studies of grossly imperfect data ? You mean you haven't looked into the science behind the biggest ever threat to civilisation, but have been willing to take other people's word for it ? Oh, dear. How very, umm, faith-based ...

name one


EESU, probably, does not exist.

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Tue, 11 Aug 2009, 4:39am #30
Freddy
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Last visit: Sat, 14 Nov 2009
Posts: 96

WalksOnDirt wrote:

Freddy wrote:

evnow wrote:

Steve Forbes - someone who considers global warming a "myth" ...

He's right.

No, he isn't.

OK, we're all scientists here, or, at least, scientifically inclined, and thus naturally skeptical.
So, tell me, why do you believe in catastrophic anthropogenic global warming ?

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