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Doubts emerge over GM Volt « Open Forum « News, Reviews & Misc
 
Mon, 24 Aug 2009, 10:28am #31
nekote
Administrator
Two_theories
Registered: Aug, 2008
Last visit: 3 hours ago
Posts: 2726

Fibb222 wrote:

greg woulf wrote:

snip...
The Prius is a good car, but it's not as good. It cost more initially and the price came down, and I expect the Volt will too.

You can get it converted for $11k which puts it just barely below a Volt, but without a warranty and with a setup that wasn't designed into the car. Even then the performance isn't up to the spec the Volt shows.

It can be done for only $3K now. Check this out....http://enginer.us/

I'm going to get it done myself.

Fib222, I hope it works out well and you can give us a report!

One thing, though.
Be very careful with your money.
Make sure those guys / that site are really for real.
(My first impression - Site did not inspire confidence, in me)

FWIW, for a capacity increment of 2 kWh, $1,000.
$500 / kWh, for rated capacity.
Of course, only 50% or so is actually useable.
So, really $1,000 / kWh.

A123's L5 ($11K "5" kWh range extender only utilizes 60% (3 kWh))):
http://www.theeestory.com/files/l5_performance-data-chart.jpg


Go DW Go - *economical* mass production

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009, 2:07pm #32
dvelasco68
EEager
Dvelasco68
Registered: Jan, 2009
Last visit: 1 day ago
Posts: 321

I in NO WAY endorse this article...

So save your rants for Johan de Nysschen...

Just posting an article I found...

http://gas2.org/2009/09/03/audi-chief-calls-chevy-volt-a-car-for-idiots/

Audi Chief Calls Chevy Volt “A Car For Idiots”

Written by Nick Chambers, Editor
Published on September 3rd, 2009

Bring on the war of words. In a frank conversation with MSN writer Lawrence Ulrich, Audi of America President Johan de Nysschen has said that the Chevy Volt will fail and that anybody who buys the car is an idiot. Not only that, de Nysschen has lumped proponents of any type of electric car into a category of “intellectual elite who want to show what enlightened souls they are.”

I’m guessing that means a fair amount of the people reading this would be considered idiots and pompous intellectual elites in Mr. de Nysschen’s book. Funny that. Hearing an Audi executive mocking any other car as being for intellectual pompous elites is, err, interesting, given that Audi is known for being in exactly that category themselves. Agh.

So taking the diplomatic view, ignore, for a minute, his purposely inflammatory and derogatory statements, and consider his analysis. In de Nysschen’s mind, no one will be willing to pay the expected $40,000 base price of the Volt when the cars it’s competing with are $15,000 less (he thinks the Volt will be competing with Toyota Corollas). Also, he noted, the Volt doesn’t deliver a premium luxury experience and, therefore, its eco-lux price tag is inexcusable to the average consumer.

Keep in mind that de Nysschen is a strong proponent of diesel technology and Audi is currently investing a lot of energy and capital promoting diesels to Americans. He feels that modern fuel-sipping low emissions diesel technology has been largely ignored by the US government and that people have been wrongly convinced into thinking that electric cars are the answer.

His preference for diesels over electric and plug-in cars is based on his following conclusions:

A wholesale shift from gas to electric cars in the US would result in a net increase in carbon dioxide emissions due to the fact that about 70% of American electricity currently comes from coal plants.
Recent advances in diesel technology have resulted in very high mileage cars with extremely low emissions.
Diesels already have the infrastructure needed to provide a fuel supply. Electric cars need to have infrastructure built and completely upgraded.
On the surface, he may have some thought-provoking points. But I’ve done some thinking on this topic in the past too, and this is what I’ve concluded:

While it’s true that about 50% of American electricity currently comes from coal, that number is changing quickly as more renewables come online. In some areas of the country, large amounts of electricity already come from renewable sources. Given that EVs will come on relatively slowly as well, it makes sense to conduct the switch simultaneously.
Regardless of that, there is research that shows even given the current ratio of coal power in the US, it would be less polluting to switch to plug-in hybrids and electric cars.
It’s much easier and more cost effective to regulate a relative handful of single source emitters such as power plants than it is to regulate hundreds of millions of tailpipes. When new pollution reduction technology comes online all you have to do is go to your power plant and add the new technology there. Imagine trying to get that new technology into all 250 million cars.
Transmission of electrical power is orders of magnitude more efficient than shipping refined oil all around the country to thousands of different fuel stations.
If the power source in your car (electricity) is independent of the power generation method (coal, natural gas, wind, solar, geothermal, wave, biomass burning, etc.) you ensure that not only will your transportation method be adaptable to future changes, you also increase the stability and security of your transportation infrastructure because you have a diverse variety local power sources to choose from.
While I agree with Mr. de Nysschen that the US should be taking a good look at the viability of diesels (especially considering that Europeans can already buy a huge variety of high mileage diesels), his analysis of why electric cars are doomed to fail is completely off base. And his method of delivery of the message is tasteless and unnecessarily mean.


"So long as they don't get violent, I want to let everyone say what they wish, for I myself have always said exactly what pleased me..." - Albert Einstein

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009, 2:29pm #33
Fibb
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Av-13927
Registered: Jul, 2009
Last visit: 1 hour ago
Posts: 833

nekote wrote:

Fibb222 wrote:

greg woulf wrote:

snip...
The Prius is a good car, but it's not as good. It cost more initially and the price came down, and I expect the Volt will too.

You can get it converted for $11k which puts it just barely below a Volt, but without a warranty and with a setup that wasn't designed into the car. Even then the performance isn't up to the spec the Volt shows.

It can be done for only $3K now. Check this out....http://enginer.us/

I'm going to get it done myself.

Fib222, I hope it works out well and you can give us a report!

One thing, though.
Be very careful with your money.
Make sure those guys / that site are really for real.
(My first impression - Site did not inspire confidence, in me)

FWIW, for a capacity increment of 2 kWh, $1,000.
$500 / kWh, for rated capacity.
Of course, only 50% or so is actually useable.
So, really $1,000 / kWh.

A123's L5 ($11K "5" kWh range extender only utilizes 60% (3 kWh))):
http://www.theeestory.com/files/l5_performance-data-chart.jpg

No problem on the legitimacy of the company. I've conversed on PriusChat with many current owners of the Enginer.us kit. It mostly works as advertised and when there are problems with hardware, the company is there to replace it.

Search for enginer on PC to see the various threads.

This one is particularly interesting:

http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-phev-plug-in-...


Dick Weir will not go quietly in the night, he will bring forth the new EESU, for EESU reveal day is our Independence day! - Futureman 100/10

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009, 2:54pm #34
EEventually
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Lm_ark
Registered: Mar, 2009
Last visit: 9 minutes ago
Posts: 2765

just for the exercise, what would a weight equivalent exchange of the Volt battery for EESU (with an appropriate PEM) do to the "engine off" range to this vehicle?

What would it do to cost at say, $150kWh (before PEM).

Needed info:
current battery weight
current battery cost
estimated PEM cost

Don't forget to widen the range of usable stored energy to 95% or so.


“Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled.”- Michael Crichton

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Sat, 05 Sep 2009, 1:29am #35
DaveinOlyWA
EExpert
Registered: Sep, 2009
Last visit: 22 hours ago
Posts: 194

i have a Prius, in fact, have purchased 3 of them and still have my 2006. total nearly 100,000 miles on them and no issues. not one. now being able to dump the current battery pack and putting an EESU in its place would be awesome. i am guessing that an option for multiple EESU's in one vehicle would be probably beyond my financial means plus it would be priced in the premium "long waiting list" market, etc.

as far as the Volt. my personal feeling (no real info to back this)is that the Volt was supposed to be introduced in spring 2008...didnt happen. now its coming 2010. the EESU was supposed to be out. didnt happen. now if GM had been counting on EESU as its power train and there was never any real development with the Li-ion (after all, would there not be prototypes running around this close to launch dates?)

anyway, we shall see soon enough. but lets face it, the Volt is over priced, under-performing and simply too late with the "expected" technology.

Zenn proposing a "energy storage research facility" next door to GM is convenient. if they are looking for a place to rapidly expand a production facility with a favorable tax climate, Michigan is definitely a good candidate for that.

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