TheEEStory.com

Interesting news release from UL today regarding their role in assisting cities to prepare for large influx of EV's.

See link below...

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/corporate/ne...

UL's engineers will answer questions about EVs and EV infrastructure as well as review and provide feedback on drafts of key documents RMI distributes to project stakeholders.

I have a question UL. Is the EESU safe?

The MOU also highlights that,"by 2015, approximately 1 million EVs are expected on the road with five times that many expected by 2020".

These projections are just for the US, worldwide numbers will be significantly larger and I suspect China and India will especially be looking to electric vehicles to reduce air pollution in their cities.

I suspect these estimates may be on the conservative side, once consumers become used to EVs and their reduced cost of operating, no fuel and 90% less maintenance costs and the possibility of charging from home solar panels, (which are rapidly dropping in cost) they will flock to purchase them.

If EEStor comes to market, you can reduce that time frame by half and expect ten times that number of EVs.

If you are in the fossil fuel business, be afraid, be very afraid.

antiguajohn

antiguajohn wrote:

If you are in the fossil fuel business, be afraid, be very afraid.

Unless you sell coal or maintain coal fired power stations, because we will be needing those, if no more, for decades to come.

Shere Khaan wrote:

antiguajohn wrote:

If you are in the fossil fuel business, be afraid, be very afraid.

Unless you sell coal or maintain coal fired power stations, because we will be needing those, if no more, for decades to come.

Geothermal

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2010/geothermal-0...

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/geothermal.html

antiguajohn wrote:

These projections are just for the US, worldwide numbers will be significantly larger and I suspect China and India will especially be looking to electric vehicles to reduce air pollution in their cities.

I suspect these estimates may be on the conservative side, once consumers become used to EVs and their reduced cost of operating, no fuel and 90% less maintenance costs and the possibility of charging from home solar panels, (which are rapidly dropping in cost) they will flock to purchase them.

On the VERY conservative side in my opinion. ICEs will never be able to compete with EVs by 2020. (Even without an EESU).

EV's will supersede ICEs only because the lifetime cost of owning a car would be significantly less. It will not matter if they are powered by Lithium-ion battery, eestor or any other type of battery tech. The eventual non-existence of a number of components needed to support the ICE will be the winner.
Alternately, if the governments decide to tax car owners in the future for using roads, electricity etc it would pretty much offset all the benefits.

I have donated money to them.

Lets see, no muffler, no catalytic converter, no alternator, fewer pullies, less heat (smaller or no radiator), fewer moving parts (fewer oil changes), no spark plugs, smaller and more simplified transmission. And then on the services side, no smog checks, no muffler replacement, no spark plug replacement, no tune ups, fewer fluid replacements, etc. A lot of things will start to add up favorably for electric once battery technology is improved and some synergy is generated.

pico wrote:

EV's will supersede ICEs only because the lifetime cost of owning a car would be significantly less. It will not matter if they are powered by Lithium-ion battery, eestor or any other type of battery tech. The eventual non-existence of a number of components needed to support the ICE will be the winner.
Alternately, if the governments decide to tax car owners in the future for using roads, electricity etc it would pretty much offset all the benefits.

Government taxes on EV's will pretty much offset the cost benefits?? you gotta be kidding!

First, expect the taxes-they will come. much of the roads are paved with major tax dollars on gasoline, around $.50/gallon's worth. To lose that as a source of revenue means that the government will simply have to find another way to make up the revenue.

To somehow say that those tax dollars transferred to EV's will somehow offset the benefits of EV's in the first place is to trivialize the huge benefits of EV's-especially when outfitted with EESU's. just look at the enormous savings from better energy efficiency, much reduced energy cost, environmental and social benefits, less maintenence, noise etc. that will be seen with their use.

eeshock wrote:

pico wrote:

EV's will supersede ICEs only because the lifetime cost of owning a car would be significantly less. It will not matter if they are powered by Lithium-ion battery, eestor or any other type of battery tech. The eventual non-existence of a number of components needed to support the ICE will be the winner.
Alternately, if the governments decide to tax car owners in the future for using roads, electricity etc it would pretty much offset all the benefits.

Government taxes on EV's will pretty much offset the cost benefits?? you gotta be kidding!

First, expect the taxes-they will come. much of the roads are paved with major tax dollars on gasoline, around $.50/gallon's worth. To lose that as a source of revenue means that the government will simply have to find another way to make up the revenue.

To somehow say that those tax dollars transferred to EV's will somehow offset the benefits of EV's in the first place is to trivialize the huge benefits of EV's-especially when outfitted with EESU's. just look at the enormous savings from better energy efficiency, much reduced energy cost, environmental and social benefits, less maintenence, noise etc. that will be seen with their use.

I was trying to imply that eventually (in the long run) the cost of running the EV will be the same as that of the ICE with the added benefits you mentioned. The governments will have to recuperate the lost revenue from oil somewhere down the line.

Last edited Thu, 28 Jan 2010, 10:52am by Ender

eeshock wrote:

First, expect the taxes-they will come. much of the roads are paved with major tax dollars on gasoline, around $.50/gallon's worth. To lose that as a source of revenue means that the government will simply have to find another way to make up the revenue.

Yup.

and that 'other way' will most likely be a usage charge versus a gas tax. Some states are already considering this. You will be taxed on miles driven per year and receive a bill in the mail, like an excise tax.

Don't worry, govt's will find a way to get their cash if there's no gas to tax anymore.

Robw wrote:

eeshock wrote:

First, expect the taxes-they will come. much of the roads are paved with major tax dollars on gasoline, around $.50/gallon's worth. To lose that as a source of revenue means that the government will simply have to find another way to make up the revenue.

Yup.

and that 'other way' will most likely be a usage charge versus a gas tax. Some states are already considering this. You will be taxed on miles driven per year and receive a bill in the mail, like an excise tax.

Don't worry, govt's will find a way to get their cash if there's no gas to tax anymore.

Charging per mile is already being done by toll roads in some countries with some cars electronically tagged so you don't even have to stop at a booth to be charged, this is how in the future every car will be taxed by being electronically tagged and tracked by GPS.

You have got to be kidding me right $.50/gallon tax!!!!
Here in the UK we pay over a $ a litre in tax (3.785 litres per US gallon), current price for a US gallon is US$6.70 and you think you have it bad!

The biggest potential short term market for EVs is definitely western Europe: heavy taxes on petrol, short average daily runs, low average speed, very crowded cities, big pollution problems even leading to complete traffic halt days.
China and India will be following very quickly, depending on the cost of the EV compared to the average salaries.
It could be much much harder to convince an average US citizen to convert to EVs, with the cost of petrol at one third the european one and much longer daily average commuting.

pico wrote:

I was trying to imply that eventually (in the long run) the cost of running the EV will be the same as that of the ICE with the added benefits you mentioned. The governments will have to recuperate the lost revenue from oil somewhere down the line.

You are much too optimistic about governments.

Since governments will tax anything that moves they will tax both mileage and gas (/petrol). There is no escape. You know in your heart that it will be like this!!

The inevitable effect will be that in the future EV's will be no cheaper than an ICE car is now. But at that future time the ICE car will be much more expensive than an EV.

Regards,
Peter

Hey EEshock,

I have an idea, if we all had electric VTOL personal flying machines, we wouldn't need roads. Then the truckers could pay all the taxes.

great!! vtol's will come soon enough, range will be limited, but way cool. i suspect that gyrocopters will make a resurgence with the eesu/motor powerplant, cost and quiet operation makes sense.

here's the coolest gyrocopter/airplane hybrid of all! it has vtol capabilities and is much safer to fly, still in development. http://www.cartercopters.com/faq-general.html#q...

Last edited Fri, 29 Jan 2010, 12:08pm by eeshock

[quote=Technopete][quote=pico]
The inevitable effect will be that in the future EV's will be no cheaper than an ICE car is now. But at that future time the ICE car will be much more expensive than an EV.

Regards,
Peter
[/quote]

In response to your quote above. Please read the last sentences of this article. http://blogs.forbes.com/energysource/2010/02/05...

A few days ago the president of Toyota's North American operations announced that Toyota would be pursuing electric car production. The reason he gave was that Toyota is certain that peak oil will be upon us by 2020 and petroleum fuels will be too pricey for the average consumer. I would also expect electricity to cost more, but we can increase electricty production much easier than we can increase oil production. Wonderful things are being done with new methods of producing biofuels, but it does not appear to be enough to completely replace our thirst for petroleum fuels.

The ICE car may be the same price as the electric car but you won't be able to afford the gasoline or diesel for the ICE car.

As to the adoption of EVs leading to lost taxes, energy independence will lead to vast savings in other parts of the government.

One area would be the military, as Amory Lovins of RMI (Rocky Mountain Institute) said energy independence eliminates the huge costs of having a military to defend oil supplies in Farofistan.

Yes, the defense industry will take a financial hit, however the savings accruing to the public, combined with savings on fuel and maintenance costs for cars as well as electrical costs for the home, as well as lower tax rates, will be spent purchasing products from companies powered by green energy.

It's capitalism at it's best, and referred to as "Creative Destruction" older inefficient or unnecessary industries disappear, newer more efficient and relevant ones replace them and the public gains.

If you are in the fossil fuel business, be afraid, be very afraid.

antiguajohn