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How to play ZNN (ZNNMF) right now « Zenn Motor Company « Financial
 
Thu, 30 Oct 2008, 5:31pm #1
buddhabill
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I'm interested in a discussion on the various strategies for playing ZNN right now. (I say 'playing' because the stock is still obviously very specualtive).

My thoughts are as such:

1. At these prices there isn't much downside short-term. The price is just off record lows (like entire indices) and there is no overhang of a bio-tech-like clinical trial failure that could crash the stock overnight.

No news or no delivery by the end of the year will result in a slow bleed, not a crash. This is the good thing about the repeated disappointments of the past...

2. Zenn, through Zennergy has shown that they believe that their future is more in licensing than manufacturing. I'm a believer in this business model, and it can add more value to the stock (in addition to their Eestor stake) than making cars or conversion kits.

I'm gathering a 1/2 position now with most of my specualtive resources, saving the other 1/2 for significant dips. Like many I'll wait for hard news to jump in whole-hog.

Other opinions?


"One in a million? So you're saying there's a chance..."
- Jim Carey in Dumb and Dumber

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Thu, 30 Oct 2008, 8:41pm #2
mmimic34
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there will be no "jumping in" after 'hard news'...sorry

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Thu, 30 Oct 2008, 8:44pm #3
Y_No
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I bought ZENN around July/August when the EEStor Press Release came out about their powder tests. I bought in around $4-$5/share. Right now my investment is looking like a poor decision considering my purchase price and the current ZENN price.

I have more money to invest, although I currently own about 6,000 shares and I feel comfortable with that level of risk even if I invest no further funds.

I will probably kick myself in the butt for not buying more shares this week, but I think I am going to hold out on buying more until EEstor and Zenn show us an EESU. They say they will in less than two months so hopefully they will keep their word this time.

I do like OI's advice on that. We all are going to know the news as soon as it hits and we can catch a very big wave.

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Thu, 30 Oct 2008, 8:54pm #4
excoriator
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Sheeesh, y_no!

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.


User under probation until Jan 01, 2009 for multiple postings in an invite only section without an invite.

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Thu, 30 Oct 2008, 9:19pm #5
Y_No
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Thanks EX, but the money I have in ZENN is still small potatoes. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I still have the faith. If EEStor is real I think we are looking at a $100/share stock or more, with dividends and stock splits to come.

Then again, I am an optimist.

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Thu, 30 Oct 2008, 10:23pm #6
Skiff
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What price do you think ZENN stock would reach in these scenarios ...

1 - Permitivity announcement from eeStor with 3rd party verification, but also with a lack of clarity on whether the test was individual components or a full EESU.

2 - Zenn announces the receipt of a Production Prototype, but without 3rd party verification.

3 - Production Prototype announcement with 3rd party verification on weight and capacity.

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Thu, 30 Oct 2008, 10:41pm #7
Y_No
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I am no stock expert by any means whatsoever, so do not rely on me for any information at all. That was a disclaimer!!!

But, I think numbers 2 and 3 would cause a sharp and steady stock price increase more so than with number one.

They also would need to show and let people see and touch one and demonstrate how it works.

I don't think the stock would shoot to $25 or $50 or $100/share overnight but I can see it going from $2.00 to $7.00 or $10.00 very quickly on such very good news, perhaps higher.

From there it depends on further news, such as OEM contracts and additional media attention and more independent testing, etc.

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Thu, 30 Oct 2008, 11:08pm #8
Pyjamas Before Christ
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It is looking cheap for a bet!

http://www.theeestory.com/files/buy.JPG

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Thu, 30 Oct 2008, 11:44pm #9
student
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Speculative investing is for people who are willing to lose the entire sum invested - similar to gambling. If you can't bare the thought of losing every penny you might invest in a company then don't invest in it.

Unless you have an understanding of all things influencing a stock's price you shouldn't invest in it. Stick to index funds.

Historical statistics hold that you will be unable to beat the return of index funds on average if you invest in individual stocks and are not a professional.

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Thu, 30 Oct 2008, 11:55pm #10
tvillars
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Of the financial analyst I've talked to the range after an announcement on permittivity was hoped to be between $10 and $25. But these numbers were given to me when oil was over $100 so $10 is probably closer to the mark than $25.

That said, anyone who would sell right after permitttivity and/or delivery of a production units would be leaving a lot of money on the table. The real upside is going to be 2012 or 2013 after some major OEM's have started using ZENNergy for all future models. That is when things really start to get interesting.

Fiore Massimo is a financial analyst who has been following ZMC for quite some time now. He was predicting ZNN could go to $100 by 2012 or 2013 if EEStor meets their technology milestones.

Last edited Fri, 31 Oct 2008, 6:24am by tvillars


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Fri, 31 Oct 2008, 12:07am #11
Pyjamas Before Christ
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student - right you are

I would place your "play" money only at this point.

It is not investing at this point only speculation, but that is the fun of it!

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Fri, 31 Oct 2008, 4:36pm #12
sydd
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Pyjamas Before Christ wrote:

student - right you are

I would place your "play" money only at this point.

It is not investing at this point only speculation, but that is the fun of it!

This could be a big mistake, as you never know how the market would anticipate the value of ZENN/Eestor after they release a positive permittivity press release. My guess is that lots of big players are just waiting for some REAL positive news to hop on. And don’t forget the big car makers! ZENN stock could be the ride of the century…

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Fri, 31 Oct 2008, 8:49pm #13
Daniel R Plante
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Zenn share price based on type of permittivity announcements, 3rd party validated:

1) permittivity alone: maybe up to $5-$7, driven by people that don't understand that this is meaningless.

2) permittivity + voltage: $35-$100. This is basically confirmation that a dielectric material with the energy density claimed in the WIPO document - the science - is actually possible. Since this has historically been the first sticking point for many people regarding the viability of the EESU, this is the first big bump in share price.

3) permittivity + voltage + component: $50-$150 or more. This bump is larger because the only practical way to measure permittivity of a complete, functioning capacitor is to derive it from a charge/discharge cycle measurement, which means this is essentially DIRECT confirmation of the actual energy density of a working device.

4) perm + volts + component + prod. line: maybe $75-$175. Unlikely for all this to be announced. This is higher because of 3rd party confirmation that their test components came from a working production line. The bump here is obviously from confirmation that the production line to make these things actually works, which is big.

5) perm + volts + comp + prod + yield(throughput & unit cost): VERY unlikely for all this to be announced. Since this has historically been the second sticking point for many people regarding the viability of the EESU, this is the second big bump in share price. Maybe $100-$300. Really hard to judge this one since this is the point that starts to trigger risk-averse Big Money interest. Once the technology and the production levels are proven, the remaining hurdles (assembly, power electronics, safety certification, cycle-life, durability, temperature etc) are not show-stoppers and typically require only time, money, influence and proper marketing.

With the possible exception of case #5, Zenn stock issues are going to be VERY complex. Take case #2 for example - 3rd party verification of the science/technology. This MIGHT not be enough to get large established firms to dump hundreds of millions into building factories after gaining lisencing deals with EEStor (and the subsequent effect of that on Zenn stock value - which would now include 6.4% EEStor ownership), but it WOULD be enough to elicit large buy pressure on Zenn stock from established venture-oriented mutual funds and monied individuals. LOTs of money. All at once.

The question is, what would the trading dynamics be like? Say for instance ZNN goes to $50/share in the first 10 minutes of trading - who's selling? Would you sell at this point? The success of the EESU is still not certain at this point, and so there will be a little bit of profit taking (for whatever individual reasons), but success is now MUCH more likely, Zenn now owns 6.4% of EEStor, and the growth potential of the stock in terms of percentage increase in 5-10 years is so high it's difficult for me to believe my own estimates.

Who is going to sell more than a tiny fraction of what they are sitting on? Not me, bub. If it goes up over $100 I might sell another tiny bit, etc, but this will only continue until the price reaches a point where there is a tiny bit of buying pressure left, that more-or-less matches the tiny bit of selling desire, and then it'll level out, with VERY little daily trading volume holding up a HUGE share price. This situation is intrinsically unstable so there will probably be huge fluctuations around this new mean value, due to tiny bits and shards of news about production, as well as furious rumour/speculation. And I mean FURIOUS. Regular media as well.

Of course if permittivity announcement is skipped in favour of simply showcasing/delivering a working EESU, all of this is irrelevant and now you're trying to figure out the same points as above, but combining them with a working module rather than verified permittivity i.e. buyers will still have nagging questions of yield & cost, but the stock dynamics will be as outlined above - only on steroids.

Of course, all of this is just a rough guess from a market neophyte.


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
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"...the nation which controls space can control the Earth."
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Fri, 31 Oct 2008, 9:22pm #14
jam
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Since EESTOR did not change an iota of their design since they first patented the capacitor (according to the various PR and talks with B etc.) , the ZENN stock value will probably drop to penny stock when they finally give up on EESTOR and concentrate on using actually working batteries (Li-polymer or any other chemistry around). After that, the stock value should reflect the real production of the ZENN cars in the years ahead.

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Fri, 31 Oct 2008, 10:49pm #15
Lensman
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jam wrote:

Since EESTOR did not change an iota of their design since they first patented the capacitor (according to the various PR and talks with B etc.) , the ZENN stock value will probably drop to penny stock when they finally give up on EESTOR

I don't see your point. If ZENN drops the plan to use EESUs, what difference does it make if EEStor stuck to its original plan or changed it numerous times?

And aside from that, the way I read it, EEStor is claiming they've changed their approach to building the EESU twice: (1) to use PET (or more PET) to make it less fragile, and (2) to upgrade it to military standards.


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Sat, 01 Nov 2008, 8:21am #16
jam
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My point is that Ian Clifford is a marketing guy who used EEStor as a marketing tool for its ZENN car. It does not matter if the stock drops when they abandoned EEstor, the publicity would have been done.He wants to sell electric cars.

The basic design of the capacitor is an Alumina Coated BT ceramic, and, according to many, it does not and will not work. It does not matter if you change the packaging, the basis are not there.

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Sat, 01 Nov 2008, 11:25am #17
nekote
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Lensman wrote:

... the way I read it, EEStor is claiming they've changed their approach to building the EESU twice: (1) to use PET (or more PET) to make it less fragile, and (2) to upgrade it to military standards.
Lens, a bit off target. The "original" (even though the patent application was filed later), was nickel electrodes and calcium magnesium aluminosilicate "glass". More expensive, heavier and required 800°C temperatures in the HIP (Hot Isotatic Press) steps. Whereas the PET / aluminum version uses less costly raw materials, 50 pounds lighter (52 kWh EESU) and only requires 180°C processing.

Just more conjecture around here that the PET might serve to make the EESU ceramic pieces a bit less brittle.

As to the military standards - that would probably be 5000V units - at 1/2 the weight - with only a 10% or so margin to the reported 557 V / µm breakdown voltage. Rather than the commercial 3500V version (polled at 4000V), with a greater margin / somewhat less extreme perfection required.

Military version might just be the highest quality, most defect free, lowest yield pieces - making those EESUs more expensive than "good enough" 3500V commercial units.

Last edited Sat, 01 Nov 2008, 12:05pm by nekote


Government is like fire - a dangerous servant and a fearful master - George Washington
Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all other forms of government. - Winston Churchill

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Sat, 01 Nov 2008, 3:04pm #18
buddhabill
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Does anyone know how many shares are held by insiders and institutions?

IF (big if) zenn gets a fully baked production eesu the bidding could be insane. Then the stock will get visibility tus drawing a huge number of momentum players.

It would be tempting to take profits after the initial jump and wait for the momentum players to go away especially if major questions (per daniels post) remain, with the intent of buying on dips...but one could end up chasing the stock instead.

but all this is getting ahead of the current situation which is that znn is cheap compared to a month ago and zenn has reiterated that they expect to receive an eesu 'this year'.

How high might we go in Nov? What happens the last week of Dec if no news?


"One in a million? So you're saying there's a chance..."
- Jim Carey in Dumb and Dumber

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Mon, 03 Nov 2008, 12:35pm #19
buddhabill
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Looks like there is some accumulation happening today. With the current poker craze as an analogy - the 'pot odds' certainly favor a small bet.


"One in a million? So you're saying there's a chance..."
- Jim Carey in Dumb and Dumber

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Thu, 06 Nov 2008, 7:56pm #20
nekote
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Today's volume - only 56,712 shares exchanged between sellers and buyers.

Versus an average daily volume of 82,200.

No particular rhyme or reason? :(


Government is like fire - a dangerous servant and a fearful master - George Washington
Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all other forms of government. - Winston Churchill

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Thu, 06 Nov 2008, 8:04pm #21
buddhabill
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Low volume stocks are really susceptible to good and bad news alike. Today no news was bad news when everything else was tanking. The flip side is that any positive news will be quite a rocket ride.

I'm in @ 70% of my initial accumulation - I held back the other 30% just in case ZNNMF - the OTC stock that tracks ZNN in US $$$ falls back to $1.50 US.


"One in a million? So you're saying there's a chance..."
- Jim Carey in Dumb and Dumber

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Sat, 15 Nov 2008, 10:48am #22
dareka1
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Two questions-
Firstly, there must be some people who have come in contact with Eestor enough to know whether it is true or not. Wouldn't those people be buying up shares in Zenn if it were true? Hence the price shouldn't be able to drop to this level if it's the real deal?
Secondly, should they turn a profit, would Zenn start paying dividends? Or will the shares only ever be just their face value?

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Sat, 15 Nov 2008, 11:41am #23
Kahuna
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Regarding #2, start-ups rarely if ever pay dividends as they plow all retained earnings (if there are any) into financing growth.

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Sat, 15 Nov 2008, 12:07pm #24
dareka1
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Thanks Kahuna, but they would eventually pay dividends, after they started getting more money than they knew what to do with? :)
Also, they would transfer to another stock exchange with the same shares if they were successful? Would it also be possible that as soon as they hit the headlines, they could flood the market with shares to get more money, diluting any investment we've made but that wouldn't be logical because it would dilute their holdings as well?
Have you dabbled in a few Zenn shares? Or are you just watching?

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Sat, 15 Nov 2008, 1:33pm #25
Kahuna
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Yes on the exchange move, very doubtful on the dividends. A secondary offering is likely if EEStor/Zennergy actually happens.

I trade futures for a living and seldom hold anything overhight. Zenn would not be a good use of my capital.

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Sun, 16 Nov 2008, 1:01am #26
dareka1
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I really appreciate your answering my questions, Kahuna, thank you. If they didn't pay dividends, is there any point in owning Zenn shares? They could easily be diluted and don't actually make money beyond their selling value? So it would be difficult to make any money on them?
I'm based in Japan, so the slow time response on occasions is probably because I'm sleeping.
Hi Kahun, I did a search on dividend vs. non-dividend paying shares, I think I understand. Thanks.

Last edited Sun, 16 Nov 2008, 4:28am by dareka1

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Mon, 17 Nov 2008, 2:28am #27
CapacitorMan
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Changing the topic a little:

Suppose that EEStor found, as some suspect, that the cost of making the EESU is greater than they expected?

I for one, think, it will be about $10K per copy, mostly because of the cost of making the high purity BT, and the need for more complex assembly.

It's still a viable product, certainly much less costly than the Tesla option, but would add probably 15K to the cost of the Zenn.

Still a breakthrough technology, still an attractive alternative, but would Zenn be able to handle it?

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Mon, 17 Nov 2008, 3:21pm #28
buddhabill
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I'd think that there is a market at that price and even beyone. Primarily because there are plenty of early adopters who want to flip off OPEC for good.

Add a government/military contract and Zenn would do quite well, both as a manufacturer and as a licensor. Clearly not as well as they would @ $5k per unit, tho.


"One in a million? So you're saying there's a chance..."
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Mon, 17 Nov 2008, 3:28pm #29
student
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dareka1 wrote:

If they didn't pay dividends, is there any point in owning Zenn shares? They could easily be diluted and don't actually make money beyond their selling value? So it would be difficult to make any money on them?

dareka1: If you have to ask these questions then you should view investing in ZMC as a bet where you, dareka1, don't know the odds. You might benefit from reading my previous post in this thread: http://theeestory.com/topics/539?page=1#p9994

CapacitorMan wrote:

Suppose that EEStor found, as some suspect, that the cost of making the EESU is greater than they expected?

I for one, think, it will be about $10K per copy, mostly because of the cost of making the high purity BT, and the need for more complex assembly.

It's still a viable product, certainly much less costly than the Tesla option, but would add probably 15K to the cost of the Zenn.

Still a breakthrough technology, still an attractive alternative, but would Zenn be able to handle it?

It would still be cost competitive with current production lithium ion battery technology. As long as it meets the patent specs it would have those other advantages cited.

This is to say it would still eat the lunch of lithium ion battery makers while failing to be cost competitive with gasoline (and lead acid).

Being cost competitive with gasoline, diesel, and lead acid would change things a bit more.

Based on released pricing data, this would push the price of a CityZENN over $30-35k. Sure there are people willing to pay that much but it's not cheap enough to change the game for the mass market.

Last edited Mon, 17 Nov 2008, 3:38pm by student

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Wed, 19 Nov 2008, 12:47pm #30
buddhabill
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Look at today's volume on tsx ZNN - now over 83k shares, big volume on the OTC znnmf too.

Somebody thinks something is up...

edit: Total of 150k shares on both exchanges today - a multiple of normal activity.

Last edited Wed, 19 Nov 2008, 3:24pm by buddhabill


"One in a million? So you're saying there's a chance..."
- Jim Carey in Dumb and Dumber

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