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Munich - Berlin (600km; 372 miles) with an EV - non stop « Competitors « Financial
 
Tue, 26 Oct 2010, 11:30am #1
Munich
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Hi,

I just read some news about a new distance record with an EV. The car drove 600km (372miles) with no stop for recharging form Munich to Berlin under real traffic conditions. It took them 7h(average for a normal car is between 5h30m to 6h30m). The maximum speed was 130km/h(80mph).
The battery(KOLIBRI AlphaPolymer Technology) was provided by a German company called DBM Energy ( http://www.dbm-energy.com/ ).
I also found an german article in witch it is said that the battery can be recharged in 20min.

English article:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/intern...

google translation of a german article :
http://translate.google.at/translate?js=n&p...

(original page http://www.portel.de/nc/nachricht/artikel/46503... )

Greetings,
Munich

edit: corrected 327miles to 372miles

Last edited Tue, 26 Oct 2010, 11:45am by Munich

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Tue, 26 Oct 2010, 11:35am #2
teslafan49
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Munich, great article. The Audi A2 is the same vehicle as VWs upcoming electic car, iirc. VW/Audi?porsche are a force to be reckoned with. The company is not only working on several high mileage diesels, capable of using all types of diesel, or any combo thereof, but E cars, from the small VW to the Audi, to even a Porsche, which lacks nothing in the performance department. VW would be a good company to add to your portfolio, if you are looking for "green" investments, IMHO.

Oh yes, VW is also going to market the Bluesport, a 2 seat, turbo-diesel powered roadster, capable of 50 mpg, and 0-60 in @ 6 secs.,and a beautiful car, starting in the low 30k range.

http://cne.autoblog.com/photos/preview-volkswag...


'36 Roadster Pickup

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Tue, 26 Oct 2010, 11:41am #3
Y_Po
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600km is 372 miles, not 327 miles.


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Tue, 26 Oct 2010, 11:46am #4
Munich
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Y_Po wrote:

600km is 372 miles, not 327 miles.

sry. i can not edit the topic name...

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Tue, 26 Oct 2010, 11:48am #5
AlbertFeher
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300,000 mile lifetime as well.

Not enough for me but should work for most folks. 8-)

btw, this is a lithium metal polymer battery iirc.

Last edited Tue, 26 Oct 2010, 11:54am by AlbertFeher

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Tue, 26 Oct 2010, 12:18pm #6
Bone
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How many kWh? How many seats and how much luggage space with all that battery?

Yes, 300+ miles and 20 minute recharge is quite reasonable with modern batteries if you don't have to care about cost. Getting product like that affordable is the challenge. Charging infrastructure is other challenge (this is mostly cost issue too).


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Tue, 26 Oct 2010, 12:20pm #7
wasmaba
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Using google translate:

The batteries have an extremely (KOLIBRI) high efficiency (greater than 97 percent). Made of high-quality, recyclable materials. Made of high-quality, recyclable materials. The cells contain no heavy metals, toxic gases, liquids or acids. The cells contain no heavy metals, toxic gases, liquids or acids. Therefore, the batteries that ten years may be in use, no hazardous waste, but go into the recycling of materials. Therefore, the batteries that ten years may be in use, no hazardous waste, but go into the recycling of materials. Another feature of the DBM technology is the extremely short charging time of batteries. Another feature of the DBM technology is the extremely short charging time of batteries. When sufficient current is provided, the charging time is currently 20 minutes. When sufficient current is provided, the charging time is currently 20 minutes. However, there are different charging methods possible, including the connection to a normal charger. However, there are different charging methods possible, including the connection to a normal charger


EEStor’s legitimacy is a job for Carl Sagan and Sherlock Holmes. Times are a changing.
http://theeestory.com/posts/47263 TY B,TV,Nekote. http://theeestory.com/topics/1949

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Tue, 26 Oct 2010, 12:35pm #8
Robert
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From the manufacturer's site via Google translate

Furthermore, presenting the first DBM Energy companies in the world, a lithium metal polymer battery starter and power board. Because of the possibility of these high-tech battery almost to assemble fully with the DBM development is independent of brands for all cars, trucks, motorcycles, boats, etc. to use.

Their CMS keeps crashing. You'd almost think we had overloaded it.

Robert

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Tue, 26 Oct 2010, 5:09pm #9
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Munich:

Thanks for that information! And a belated "Welcome to the forum" to you.

Munich wrote:

sry. i can not edit the topic name...

Actually, you can:

1. Go to the first post in this thread.

2. Click on "Edit" link at the bottom of the post.

3. Click on the "Edit Topic" link underneath the text box.


We are the 99%. A better world is possible.

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Tue, 26 Oct 2010, 6:02pm #10
Lowell
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Hurry up Dick! The competition is closing in on all sides! Lithium Ion is getting better and many others are looking hard at Barium Titanate trying to beat you at your own game.


Think noble thoughts.

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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 3:18am #11
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From a press release:

99.7% efficiency (for a single direction as I read it). I need to go look again. This was shift efficiency. I randomly saw 97% in an article but need to find it and verify it. Please disregard this efficiency.

No heating or cooling needed in the operational range of -20 C to 60 C.

Goal cycling is 5000 times.

6 minute DC charge time.

This company is selling a book for 249 Euro Dollars. It's basically a sales whitepaper for the company's product (not yet being manufactured). Pro-German language.

Their batteries have been used in forklifts for 28 hours on one charge by some logistics company.

I found an account of the commute with technical data! The car left at 20:30 and arrived at 05:20 Total distance traveled: 605 km (376 miles) so that's 8 hours and 50 minutes with a 35 minute break for pictures or 8 hours and 15 minutes (8.25h). This is 45.57 mph. Apparently there was still 10% capacity left in the battery at the end of the journey.

Technische Daten Audi A2 von DBM*
* mit Vorbehalt

Leergewicht (incl. Fahrer) 1260 kg
Zul. Gesamtgewicht 1600 kg
Batterie Lithium-Eisen-Polymer (260 Ah/380 V) Zellspannung 3,8 Volt
Batteriegewicht ca. 300 kg
Ladezeit netzbedingt ca. 4 Stunden bei Drehstrom im Haushalt (380V)
batteriebedingt 6 Minuten (Zukunftslösung)
Ladezyklen Lebenszeit 2500 (ohne Kapazitätsverlust)
= Lebensdauer erreichbares Ziel: 500000 Kilometer
Höchstgeschwindigkeit 160 km/h
Getriebe sequentiell 5-Gang (Renngetriebe: Schalten ohne zu kuppeln)
E-Motor 300 Nm Drehmoment

Translating the important stuff.

Altogether [including the driver] the vehicle is [1260 kg (2778 lb.).]

The lithium-iron-polymer battery is ~300 kg and 98.8 kWh. That's 329 Wh/kg

Currently lifetime is at 2500 Charge cycles without any degradation. This is targeting 500,000 km service lifetime or 200 km/cycle. This is 310,686 miles and 124 miles/cycle.

No word on depth of discharge for the zero degradation.

Oh, and the car can seat four people apparently.

I think the advantage of this battery is a vaguely referenced "lower cost than the other guys" reference - depending on scale. I also read that it would be more expensive than lead-acid. It was not clarified if that was at full scale production or currently.

Also the apparent lack of degradation and subsequent 6 minute charge time for 100 kWh is an advantage.

I guess the efficiency and temp range is nice too. No mention of the effect of temp on efficiency though.

[EDIT: corrected 2 mistranslated phrases.]

Last edited Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 10:06am by student


Bill Nye says limits for a dielectric are simply what have been demonstrated to date.


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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 3:21am #12
antiguajohn
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Wow! 600km., with that range I could drive around the island ten times or more, however I would have to stop for more beer, rum and ice.

Definitely no range anxiety here,

antiguajohn


When the facts change, I change my mind," John Maynard Keynes once observed in a debate. "What do you do, sir?" Why, sir, they take no notice of changed facts and so are untroubled by such questions.

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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 7:02am #13
Munich
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student wrote:

Leergewicht (incl. Fahrer) 1260 kg
Zul. Gesamtgewicht 1600 kg

Translating the important stuff.

Altogether the vehicle is 1600 kg (3527 lb.).


no. that is wrong. zul.(zulässiges) gesamtgewicht means that the car fully loaded (with passengers/luggage ect.) may not weight more then 1600kg.
the weight of the car with one driver and batteries is 1260kg.(2778 lbs)

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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 7:20am #14
Y_Po
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99.7% efficiency of what?
329 Wh/kg? that would be record breaking (by factor of 2 almost) Lithium Ion.


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 7:30am #15
student
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Munich wrote:

student wrote:

Leergewicht (incl. Fahrer) 1260 kg
Zul. Gesamtgewicht 1600 kg

Translating the important stuff.

Altogether the vehicle is 1600 kg (3527 lb.).


no. that is wrong. zul.(zulässiges) gesamtgewicht means that the car fully loaded (with passengers/luggage ect.) may not weight more then 1600kg.
the weight of the car with one driver and batteries is 1260kg.(2778 lbs)

Oops. You're right. Didn't read that right. I don't often come across the term. Translated it literally instead of according to usage.


Bill Nye says limits for a dielectric are simply what have been demonstrated to date.


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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 7:37am #16
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Y_Po wrote:

99.7% efficiency of what?
329 Wh/kg? that would be record breaking (by factor of 2 almost) Lithium Ion.

I took it to mean charge or discharge. Here's the German in case I mistranslated.

So konnte in einem regulären Schichtbetrieb, ohne Modifikation der Fahrzeuge, ein Wirkungsgrad von 99,7 % nachgewiesen werden. Der Akku wird dabei wie gewohnt über den gleichen Stecker mit dem Fahrzeug verbunden und kommt im Bereich -20 bis +60 °C komplett ohne Wärmen bzw. Kühlen aus.

...

Diese Erwartungshaltung ist durchaus realistisch, denn durch den hohen Wirkungsgrad ergibt sich eine nachgewiesene Energieersparnis von bis zu 70 % gegenüber der konventionellen Technik. „Damit bezahlt sich der Akku quasi selbst“, so Mattke. Die Kosten für einen Kolibri-Akku sind dabei mindestens genau so wegweisend wie seine Leistungsfähigkeit, denn erstmals wird es möglich sein, dass sich den Akku jeder leisten kann.

[EDIT: I misread again. Please see below.]

Last edited Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 10:08am by student


Bill Nye says limits for a dielectric are simply what have been demonstrated to date.


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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 7:46am #17
Y_Po
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Well, efficiency of charge or discharge is pointless. You have to have round-trip efficiency and it cannot be 99.7%
and ED of 329 wh/kg is pretty unbelievable too.


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 7:50am #18
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I think they are implying you can throw whatever current you have available at the battery without regulating it.

The planned 6 minute charge time implies the battery can take at least a 1 MW charge.

They spoke of a 500 mile range vehicle (obviously not this 98.8 kWh battery) as well so I'm not sure if they were referring to 6 minute charge time for that or for the one in the publicity stunt.


Bill Nye says limits for a dielectric are simply what have been demonstrated to date.


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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 9:51am #19
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They were on the Bundesautobahn (BAB) for most of the trip.

http://69.12.216.103/files/202px-Bundesautobahn_9_map.png
BAB 9 (A9)

Auf der Autobahn könnte der A2 160 km/h fahren. Das will Hannemann aber nicht. Der will in dieser Nacht einen Weltrekord für Elektroautos aufstellen. Also fährt er nur 80 bis 90 km/h. Ob er auch die Heizung kalt lässt? Wir wissen es nicht.

21.35 Uhr Gerade eine Stunde sind wir jetzt gefahren – und stecken schon im Stau. Ein Unfall. Das eine von zwei THW-Fahrzeugen schaltet das Blaulicht ein, schwenkt auf die Standspur, der Elektroauto-Konvoi hinterher. Abfahrt Allershausen A9. Umleitung über kleine Ortschaften. Aufham, Oberthann. Es läuft gut. Die Blaulichter lassen wir links liegen.

"The hummingbird"

...The battery name is Kolibri (hummingbird).

Last edited Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 10:20am by student


Bill Nye says limits for a dielectric are simply what have been demonstrated to date.


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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 10:02am #20
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facticity wrote:

it looks like the efficiency figures were from a test of their battery technology in a forklift.

Yes. Changing it.

den hohen Wirkungsgrad ergibt sich eine nachgewiesene Energieersparnis von bis zu 70 % gegenüber der konventionellen Technik

And the 70% energy savings is in production. Green Germans caring about production energy used.

Last edited Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 10:21am by student


Bill Nye says limits for a dielectric are simply what have been demonstrated to date.


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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 10:28am #21
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facticity wrote:

An article I previously referenced stated that the A2 driver had the heater on.

I also read that article. I didn't verify it but the author of the timeline said the journalists on the bus did not know if he did or not. I imagine he did.

Average speed for the whole trip, (stopping the clock for the break) was 45.57 mph.


Bill Nye says limits for a dielectric are simply what have been demonstrated to date.


Jack LaLanne

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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 10:46am #22
Bone
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facticity wrote:

and substantially better than even A123's batteries (upper boundry 230 Wh/kg)**!

** http://bit.ly/awsrDc (Technology overview, pg 15)

You have mistaken here. The 230 Wh/kg is mentioned in technology overview for lithium ion batteries in general, but ED of A123's batteries is much lower.

The advantages of A123 include:

- Good performance at wide temperature range
- High power density
- Fast charging
- Long lifetime
- Robust and safe

However, the ED is quite low when compared to some other lithium batteries specifically designed for high ED.


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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 1:10pm #23
chacha
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student wrote:

The lithium-iron-polymer battery is ~300 kg and 98.8 kWh. That's 329 Wh/kg

Unfortunately they are a bit vague about battery details. Lithium-metal-polymer batteries usually have 3V cell voltage and not 3.8V. And indeed 329 Wh/kg is almost 3 times the energy density found in other lithium batteries and still double of the very best energy density of lithium batteries ever. Maybe they found a new chemistry ...

More interesting for our discussion is that the car achieved an average speed of 90 km/h with a maximum speed of 130 km/h. Obviously they could swim in ordinary traffic being no obstacle for other cars. And even when the battery really stores 100 kWh this means an energy consumption of not more than 13.9 kWh per 100 km! After driving 605 km from Munich to Berlin they had 18% energy left in their batteries.

13.9 kWh per 100 km is very, very far from your ridiculous claims of high energy consumption of EVs.

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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 1:17pm #24
chacha
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student wrote:

Y_Po wrote:

99.7% efficiency of what?
329 Wh/kg? that would be record breaking (by factor of 2 almost) Lithium Ion.

I took it to mean charge or discharge. Here's the German in case I mistranslated.

So konnte in einem regulären Schichtbetrieb, ohne Modifikation der Fahrzeuge, ein Wirkungsgrad von 99,7 % nachgewiesen werden. Der Akku wird dabei wie gewohnt über den gleichen Stecker mit dem Fahrzeug verbunden und kommt im Bereich -20 bis +60 °C komplett ohne Wärmen bzw. Kühlen aus.

...

Diese Erwartungshaltung ist durchaus realistisch, denn durch den hohen Wirkungsgrad ergibt sich eine nachgewiesene Energieersparnis von bis zu 70 % gegenüber der konventionellen Technik. „Damit bezahlt sich der Akku quasi selbst“, so Mattke. Die Kosten für einen Kolibri-Akku sind dabei mindestens genau so wegweisend wie seine Leistungsfähigkeit, denn erstmals wird es möglich sein, dass sich den Akku jeder leisten kann.

[EDIT: I misread again. Please see below.]

Don't care about, this was all nothing but journalists guessing what's going on. The company that built the car and did the test drive is in stealth mode regarding most of the technology used. The only official statement is that the battery weighs 300 kg and is a lithium-metal-polymer battery.

I don't believe that this battery's energy density is much higher than that of other lithium-polymer batteries, and that it certainly is not bigger than 200 Wh/kg which would be 60 kWh for the whole battery.

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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 2:08pm #25
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chacha wrote:

Don't care about, this was all nothing but journalists guessing what's going on. The company that built the car and did the test drive is in stealth mode regarding most of the technology used. The only official statement is that the battery weighs 300 kg and is a lithium-metal-polymer battery.

I don't believe that this battery's energy density is much higher than that of other lithium-polymer batteries, and that it certainly is not bigger than 200 Wh/kg which would be 60 kWh for the whole battery.

The details were fairly specific. It seems the young founder was speaking a lot at the event. I don't see how you can get numbers this specific without some input from someone knowledgeable about the product.

Leergewicht (incl. Fahrer) 1260 kg
Zul. Gesamtgewicht 1600 kg
Batterie Lithium-Eisen-Polymer (260 Ah/380 V) Zellspannung 3,8 Volt
Batteriegewicht ca. 300 kg
Ladezeit netzbedingt ca. 4 Stunden bei Drehstrom im Haushalt (380V)
batteriebedingt 6 Minuten (Zukunftslösung)
Ladezyklen Lebenszeit 2500 (ohne Kapazitätsverlust)
= Lebensdauer erreichbares Ziel: 500000 Kilometer
Höchstgeschwindigkeit 160 km/h
Getriebe sequentiell 5-Gang (Renngetriebe: Schalten ohne zu kuppeln)
E-Motor 300 Nm Drehmoment

chacha wrote:

More interesting for our discussion is that the car achieved an average speed of 90 km/h with a maximum speed of 130 km/h. Obviously they could swim in ordinary traffic being no obstacle for other cars. And even when the battery really stores 100 kWh this means an energy consumption of not more than 13.9 kWh per 100 km! After driving 605 km from Munich to Berlin they had 18% energy left in their batteries.

73.33 km/h average. The press reports are wrong. And there was a whole convoy snailing along the A9. They only had 10% left according to this source. It seems reputable as it has a timeline and details such as the above technical specs (and all numbers are realistic). Battery stores 98.8 kWh.

That's 4.2 miles per kWh at a generally steady pace averaging 45.57 mph.

Last edited Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 3:02pm by student


Bill Nye says limits for a dielectric are simply what have been demonstrated to date.


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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 5:22pm #26
chacha
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student wrote:

The details were fairly specific.
Batterie Lithium-Eisen-Polymer (260 Ah/380 V) Zellspannung 3,8 Volt

Fairly specific, but unfortunately not according with current science. Lithium-ferrum chemistry gives a cell voltage of 3.0V and not 3.8V. Current lithium-ferrum-chemistry batteries show a maximum energy density of 120 Wh/kg. Nowhere did any scientists come even close to the 330 Wh/kg of that specific battery.

If you take a look at the battery maker (http://www.dbm-energy.com/) you can see nothing but hot air. Absolutely no technical data. They are trying to sell a small booklet about lithium batteries for 249 € each! It looks a lot like Zenn.

Because of the discrepancies of the technical data given at the press event I have severe doubt that this company has anything real. Journalists were not allowed to take a close look at the car.

Remember: if it looks too good to be true then it propably is not true.

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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 5:49pm #27
student
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chacha wrote:

student wrote:

The details were fairly specific.
Batterie Lithium-Eisen-Polymer (260 Ah/380 V) Zellspannung 3,8 Volt

Fairly specific, but unfortunately not according with current science. Lithium-ferrum chemistry gives a cell voltage of 3.0V and not 3.8V. Current lithium-ferrum-chemistry batteries show a maximum energy density of 120 Wh/kg. Nowhere did any scientists come even close to the 330 Wh/kg of that specific battery.

Theoretical is 587 Wh/kg according to this 2000 MIT paper (page 11). You can change the voltage.

chacha wrote:

If you take a look at the battery maker (http://www.dbm-energy.com/) you can see nothing but hot air. Absolutely no technical data. They are trying to sell a small booklet about lithium batteries for 249 € each! It looks a lot like Zenn.

I got that impression too. Except they're more close-lipped about numbers. Website is 99.7% spin.

chacha wrote:

Because of the discrepancies of the technical data given at the press event I have severe doubt that this company has anything real. Journalists were not allowed to take a close look at the car.

Good point other than the photos of the car's display and of a cheesy cardboard cover where the battery is supposed to be.

chacha wrote:

Remember: if it looks too good to be true then it propably is not true.

Preaching to the choir here. This is theoretically possible at least. Vagueness, conflicting data, and a cheesy cardboard cover don't add up very nicely though.


Bill Nye says limits for a dielectric are simply what have been demonstrated to date.


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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 6:02pm #28
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Munich wrote:

zul.(zulässiges) gesamtgewicht means that the car fully loaded (with passengers/luggage ect.) may not weight more then 1600kg. the weight of the car with one driver and batteries is 1260kg.(2778 lbs)

An EV that can seat four people and carries enough batteries to go 600 km weighs only 2778 lbs? As compared to the 100 MPH Nissan Leaf, which weighs 3500 lbs?

Wow! I'd like to know more about that car. Is it a high-tech concept car or prototype which is too expensive for mass production?


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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 6:10pm #29
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chacha wrote:

Because of the discrepancies of the technical data given at the press event I have severe doubt that this company has anything real. Journalists were not allowed to take a close look at the car.

Remember: if it looks too good to be true then it propably is not true.

Ah, well thanks for that caveat, chacha. Too bad, that looked very promising.


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Wed, 27 Oct 2010, 7:18pm #30
Bone
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facticity wrote:

If you have a link to an A123 publication for the actual ed of their new prismatic batteries I would like to see it.

Well, for some reason A123 has not published full datasheet, but everyone selling these cells seems to state specifications: 20Ah, 3.3V, 480g.

20Ah * 3.3V / 0.48kg = 137.5 Wh/kg

Here's just one example of the sites with these specifications:
http://www.rcmaterial.com/tienda/product_info.p...


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