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DBM Energy claims 5000 charge cycles « Competitors « Financial
 
Mon, 04 Apr 2011, 4:23pm #1
chacha
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DBM Energy claims 5000 charge cycles for their sensational "hummingbirdbattery": http://www.dbm-energy.com/de/dlfiles/3.pdf

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Mon, 04 Apr 2011, 4:42pm #2
Tec
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See the "What is a good battery?" thread.

This illustrates nicely the point I was making therein.

Wonderful that it can last 5,000 charge/discharge cycles. But what about its other parameters such as cost, temperature tolerance, degredation rates etc.

Sadly if it is deficient in any of these its a dud.

Without wishing to denigrate the achievement, you have to meet ALL the criteria for an acceptable battery, not just some of them.

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Mon, 04 Apr 2011, 5:11pm #3
TecsFanEE
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What does DBM stand for? Deceptive Battery Marketing?


Fracking Beats Walking! - WCushman
The problem with the cost of healthcare is the cost of healthcare! - TecsFanee

Too much Tech not enough Tec.

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Mon, 04 Apr 2011, 6:17pm #4
WalksOnDirt
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TecFan wrote:

What does DBM stand for? Deceptive Battery Marketing?

Nothing that I can find, but Deutsch Battery Maker would be fitting.


Deasil is the right way to go.

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Mon, 04 Apr 2011, 6:56pm #5
Lowell
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EEStor had better beat them on price, because the DBM battery certainly has solved all the other problems. 5000 charges is almost 14 years of once per day charging which most people will do.


Think noble thoughts.

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Mon, 04 Apr 2011, 6:57pm #6
gamecock
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An April Fools Day press release. Hmmm...

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Mon, 04 Apr 2011, 7:24pm #7
chacha
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Lowell wrote:

EEStor had better beat them on price, because the DBM battery certainly has solved all the other problems. 5000 charges is almost 14 years of once per day charging which most people will do.

One charge per day would fit for most people when their battery is not larger than 10 kWh capacity. Average drive range in Germany is 40 km per day, and because of thinner population density and larger distances it may be 60 km in the USA. A 50 kWh battery would probably take one charge per week, and then 5000 cycles would last for a full 100 years :-)

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Mon, 04 Apr 2011, 7:49pm #8
Lowell
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Put that battery into a nice minivan. Then use the Minivan as a Taxi. While every other taxi is spending $60 per day for gasoline, You would be spending about $5 for electricity over the same distance. Regular cab drivers will either switch to electric or go broke. I am betting the first EV that most people ride in will be electric taxis. Most cities already have dedicated Taxi parking zones and those zones will be lined with charging stations.

Here is a link to a new London taxi that uses a hydrogen fuel cell as a range extender for its Li-ion battery. Put in a DBM battery and forget the fuel cell.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/06/fctaxi-...

Last edited Mon, 04 Apr 2011, 7:56pm by Lowell


Think noble thoughts.

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Mon, 04 Apr 2011, 8:49pm #9
matt
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Lowell wrote:

EEStor had better beat them on price, because the DBM battery certainly has solved all the other problems. 5000 charges is almost 14 years of once per day charging which most people will do.
If the article is to be believed, their price is < $20/kWh!

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Mon, 04 Apr 2011, 11:31pm #10
student
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Company is penurious with its battery specs. Only thing the test shows is the 62.928 kWh battery vehicle came in under 1500 kg without the driver. So we know the 62.928 kWh battery should weigh less than around 500 kg to 800 kg.

Additionally, different people with seemingly close access to the company have provided different specs. I read the 5000 cycles as a goal not yet achieved. What has been achieved is not clear.


Bill Nye says limits for a dielectric are simply what have been demonstrated to date.


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Mon, 04 Apr 2011, 11:33pm #11
student
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matt wrote:

Lowell wrote:

EEStor had better beat them on price, because the DBM battery certainly has solved all the other problems. 5000 charges is almost 14 years of once per day charging which most people will do.
If the article is to be believed, their price is < $20/kWh!

That's the Holy Grail of battery pricing in the EV context.


Bill Nye says limits for a dielectric are simply what have been demonstrated to date.


Jack LaLanne

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Tue, 05 Apr 2011, 1:04am #12
Lowell
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Running any Li-ion battery way down ( deep discharge) decreases the battery life so I do not think the 100 years is viable. Too bad they are so stingy with details. 14 years of severe service and daily charging such as a taxi or 28+ years for light duty commuting and charging every second day sounds good to me. When you know the power train is going to last that long with almost zero maintenance, you have a real incentive to take care of the rest of the car. My Toyota is 16 years old and still looks good due to frequent washing, waxing and just being careful and gentle with it.

Last edited Tue, 05 Apr 2011, 12:45pm by Lowell


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Tue, 05 Apr 2011, 12:30pm #13
HEEman
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It's starting to look like eestor missed the boat. I wonder if Zenn should use this battery for the Zennergy drive train?


In a redneck sort a way, we only have so much ass to cash that check against.

http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2011/06/n...

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Tue, 05 Apr 2011, 12:36pm #14
chacha
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matt wrote:

Lowell wrote:

EEStor had better beat them on price, because the DBM battery certainly has solved all the other problems. 5000 charges is almost 14 years of once per day charging which most people will do.
If the article is to be believed, their price is < $20/kWh!

They didn't tell anything about price or cost.

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Tue, 05 Apr 2011, 12:41pm #15
chacha
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Lowell wrote:

Running any Li-ion battery way down ( deep discharge) decreases the battery life so I do not think the 100 years is viable.

Certainly not. They are claiming 5000 cycles,. but they don't say anything about the time within these are possible.

Lithium batteries are aging with thermal stress. And since different temperatures between night and day already cuse some thermal stress, there is a maximum life even when the battery is hardly used.

5000 cycles is a claim which is far out of the usable scope. 2000 cycles within 15 years would be a much more useful value.

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Tue, 05 Apr 2011, 12:42pm #16
chacha
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HEEman wrote:

It's starting to look like eestor missed the boat. I wonder if Zenn should use this battery for the Zennergy drive train?

Which car maker would buy anything from Zenn?

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Tue, 05 Apr 2011, 2:43pm #17
chacha
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facticity wrote:

chacha wrote:

matt wrote:

Lowell wrote:

EEStor had better beat them on price, because the DBM battery certainly has solved all the other problems. 5000 charges is almost 14 years of once per day charging which most people will do.
If the article is to be believed, their price is < $20/kWh!

They didn't tell anything about price or cost.

There are two quoted articles referencing the price in the first thread on this topic.

Where? I have read all original documents from DBM and ADAC which are available online. These documents are telling very few facts anyhow, and they certainly don't say anything about cost or price.

Please give me the links to the documents which claim such an absolutely ridiculous price.

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Tue, 05 Apr 2011, 3:48pm #18
chacha
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facticity wrote:

The quoted articles in the original thread, that mention price/cost, are referenced in the following posts: #9, #57, #143 & #162. Maybe it would be beneficial for the readers of your thread if you would provide a link to the original thread on this technology?

Me? I don't know what you are referring to by naming it "original thread". This very thread here is an "original thread" of it's own, it is not a clone.

Why don't you just give the links to the documents from which you got your ridiculous statement about the price for DBM's battery? Or better admit that you made up the claim of $20/kWh by yourself.

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Tue, 05 Apr 2011, 4:17pm #19
HEEman
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chacha wrote:

HEEman wrote:

It's starting to look like eestor missed the boat. I wonder if Zenn should use this battery for the Zennergy drive train?

Which car maker would buy anything from Zenn?

Exactly Chacha.


In a redneck sort a way, we only have so much ass to cash that check against.

http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2011/06/n...

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Tue, 05 Apr 2011, 4:20pm #20
Paulcummings55
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Lowell wrote:

EEStor had better beat them on price, because the DBM battery certainly has solved all the other problems. 5000 charges is almost 14 years of once per day charging which most people will do.

As much as I am a fan/beleiver in Eestor, what really interests me is a viable battery for use in EVs and Energy Storage- and nothing would please me more than for DBM to have what they claim- but for now, I would take what they claim with a grain of salt. A large grain;-)


Paul C in Austin
"The calm before the Eestorm"

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Tue, 05 Apr 2011, 4:30pm #21
Paulcummings55
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HEEman wrote:

chacha wrote:

HEEman wrote:

It's starting to look like eestor missed the boat. I wonder if Zenn should use this battery for the Zennergy drive train?

Which car maker would buy anything from Zenn?

Exactly Chacha.

Okay- now you are letting your low opinion of ZENN color your better judgement. If ZENN were to produce an EESU for Auto-makers, the holy grail of energy storage, you seriously think that Auto-makers would turn their noses? No- each and every one of them will be customers- to not do so would allow a huge competitive advantage to pass to the ones that do.

You base your base opionion on ZENN, ultimately, on the opinion that they have squandered their resources on vapopware- but if they do receive a working EESU from Eestor, the coin flips, and they will suddenly be businessmen of vision- very rich businessmen;-)


Paul C in Austin
"The calm before the Eestorm"

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Tue, 05 Apr 2011, 8:08pm #22
HEEman
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Paulcummings55 wrote:

HEEman wrote:

chacha wrote:

HEEman wrote:

It's starting to look like eestor missed the boat. I wonder if Zenn should use this battery for the Zennergy drive train?

Which car maker would buy anything from Zenn?

Exactly Chacha.

Okay- now you are letting your low opinion of ZENN color your better judgement. If ZENN were to produce an EESU for Auto-makers, the holy grail of energy storage, you seriously think that Auto-makers would turn their noses? No- each and every one of them will be customers- to not do so would allow a huge competitive advantage to pass to the ones that do.

You base your base opionion on ZENN, ultimately, on the opinion that they have squandered their resources on vapopware- but if they do receive a working EESU from Eestor, the coin flips, and they will suddenly be businessmen of vision- very rich businessmen;-)

Of course I hope you're right Paul. The problem as always is that Zenn tells us nothing. How long are we to be kept in the dark?


In a redneck sort a way, we only have so much ass to cash that check against.

http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2011/06/n...

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Tue, 05 Apr 2011, 8:31pm #23
eeinterested
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Love the new signature line, Heeman. So chill.

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Tue, 05 Apr 2011, 8:49pm #24
Paulcummings55
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HEEman wrote:

Paulcummings55 wrote:

HEEman wrote:

chacha wrote:

HEEman wrote:

It's starting to look like eestor missed the boat. I wonder if Zenn should use this battery for the Zennergy drive train?

Which car maker would buy anything from Zenn?

Exactly Chacha.

Okay- now you are letting your low opinion of ZENN color your better judgement. If ZENN were to produce an EESU for Auto-makers, the holy grail of energy storage, you seriously think that Auto-makers would turn their noses? No- each and every one of them will be customers- to not do so would allow a huge competitive advantage to pass to the ones that do.

You base your base opionion on ZENN, ultimately, on the opinion that they have squandered their resources on vapopware- but if they do receive a working EESU from Eestor, the coin flips, and they will suddenly be businessmen of vision- very rich businessmen;-)

Of course I hope you're right Paul. The problem as always is that Zenn tells us nothing. How long are we to be kept in the dark?

Patience, Grasshopper;-) Look on the bright side, by the time ZENN reveals, we will be guaranteed sainthood!


Paul C in Austin
"The calm before the Eestorm"

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Tue, 05 Apr 2011, 10:27pm #25
CpctT@0R
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Paulcummings55 wrote:

Lowell wrote:

EEStor had better beat them on price, because the DBM battery certainly has solved all the other problems. 5000 charges is almost 14 years of once per day charging which most people will do.

As much as I am a fan/beleiver in Eestor, what really interests me is a viable battery for use in EVs and Energy Storage- and nothing would please me more than for DBM to have what they claim- but for now, I would take what they claim with a grain of salt. A large grain;-)

But you believe what EEStor claim? They haven't demonstrated anything.

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Wed, 06 Apr 2011, 12:02am #26
Paulcummings55
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CpctT@0R wrote:

Paulcummings55 wrote:

Lowell wrote:

EEStor had better beat them on price, because the DBM battery certainly has solved all the other problems. 5000 charges is almost 14 years of once per day charging which most people will do.

As much as I am a fan/beleiver in Eestor, what really interests me is a viable battery for use in EVs and Energy Storage- and nothing would please me more than for DBM to have what they claim- but for now, I would take what they claim with a grain of salt. A large grain;-)

But you believe what EEStor claim? They haven't demonstrated anything.

I am not inconsistant (well, at least not too much;-)- I have always maintained that investing in Eestor via ZENN is a high risk, high reward venture, even as I am entrenched in the so-called 'believer' camp. So- since I have no money I can afford to lose on a gamble, I do not invest in ZENN.

That said, I do believe when all is said and done, and that may be many years from now (though I hope not so long), Eestor will stand vindicated on the Science, if not the commercialization. Do I believe this completely, 100%? Could I be wrong in this belief? Sure! Eestor's claims also need to be taken with a grain of salt. But I have examined Eestor a lot- at least, circumspectly- and I think I would be surprised if the Science at least did not pan out.

DBM may prove to be as trust-worthy- but they have had some odd things that would indicate prudence in examining their claims- a little too public with their demonstrations, but no demonstrable proof, followed by a mysterious fire. Hey! As I mentioned earlier, I hope they have what they say- but right now the world is full of Li-Ion battery claims, all with differenct chemistries, all with 'posible' extraordinary claims, but nothing concrete as yet- and I think not all will pan out. It is still Li-Ion based, and so far it looks like improvements will come, but will come steadily, not with a large jump.

In that context, I actually find it easier to believe Eestor's claims because it is different, something altogether new.


Paul C in Austin
"The calm before the Eestorm"

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Wed, 06 Apr 2011, 12:10am #27
student
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chacha wrote:

facticity wrote:

The quoted articles in the original thread, that mention price/cost, are referenced in the following posts: #9, #57, #143 & #162. Maybe it would be beneficial for the readers of your thread if you would provide a link to the original thread on this technology?

Me? I don't know what you are referring to by naming it "original thread". This very thread here is an "original thread" of it's own, it is not a clone.

Why don't you just give the links to the documents from which you got your ridiculous statement about the price for DBM's battery? Or better admit that you made up the claim of $20/kWh by yourself.

My reply is in the original thread.

Last edited Wed, 06 Apr 2011, 12:17am by student


Bill Nye says limits for a dielectric are simply what have been demonstrated to date.


Jack LaLanne

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Wed, 06 Apr 2011, 12:11am #28
Lowell
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Zenn does not have marketing rights to the Kolibri battery so Zenn cannot sell them. Zenn is nothing without EEstor.


Think noble thoughts.

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