TheEEStory.com

News, Reviews and Discussion of EEStor Inc.
How many believers are remaining? « Partnerships « Financial
 
Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 1:18pm #31
royha
EExtensive
Waterfall_of_rainbows
Registered: Apr, 2010
Last visit: Fri, 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 32

I'm at about 80-85% faith. I have about 25K shares. I've been reading the site off and on for around three years.


This is not investing. This is gambling.

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 1:27pm #32
TecsFanEE
EESUrient
Registered: Sep, 2010
Last visit: Wed, 21 Mar 2012
Posts: 1989

One more thing. Why did DW set the price significantly lower than lithium batteries? There would be no need to even if it just had unlimited recharges and equal ED it would be a huge improvement. Let alone higher ED and unlimited recharges, that would mean you should price it higher or if you are a saint equal. With ground breaking tech you never price it lower than its lesser competitors at first. You dont base price on manufacturing costs, you base it on value compared to what else is on the market for as long as you can.

Something about that really bothers my gut. Should it?


Fracking Beats Walking! - WCushman
The problem with the cost of healthcare is the cost of healthcare! - TecsFanee

Too much Tech not enough Tec.

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 1:30pm #33
ricinro
EExhilarating
Rich-ricinro
Registered: Aug, 2008
Last visit: Sun, 21 Apr 2013
Posts: 3302

TecFan wrote:

One more thing. Why did DW set the price significantly lower than lithium batteries? There would be no need to even if it just had unlimited recharges and equal ED it would be a huge improvement. Let alone higher ED and unlimited recharges, that would mean you should price it higher or if you are a saint equal. With ground breaking tech you never price it lower than its lesser competitors at first. You dont base price on manufacturing costs, you base it on value compared to what else is on the market for as long as you can.

Something about that really bothers my gut. Should it?

he is not a retailer.


Thanks BTV for the blog

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 1:31pm #34
Generic
EEcclesiastical
Schrodinger
Registered: Mar, 2009
Last visit: Tue, 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 1247

I don't know what EEstor has or doesn't have, nor whether or not Zenn will be able to make money in the end.

I certainly hope they will come out on top, and will have 1000X the share price in my pocket if and when they do.

I am not, however, willing to stick up for the players involved out of admiration, faith, or what have you.

Label that how you like.


┌─┐
┴─┴
ಠ_ರೃ

Why monocles? Why not.

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 1:32pm #35
CapMan
EESUrient
Registered: Aug, 2008
Last visit: Thu, 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1447

I dont think there was much reality to that estimate...it was a hoped for target to be in line with what the ZENN car at the time needed. My guess is that the direct costs will be 10k.


CapMan
email: ---

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 1:35pm #36
zawy
EExhilarating
Bende2
Registered: Aug, 2008
Last visit: Tue, 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 3286

Before saying you've been here more than 3 years (I see 3 believers so far), please remember this web site started in August 2008, so you have to remember the switch over from the original blog.


"EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15 kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor Company in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles." - EEStor, January 2007

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 1:37pm #37
yyy
EErudite
Registered: Apr, 2009
Last visit: Fri, 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 92

Let it ride...

If I lose a chunk of cash... Oh well, whatcha gonna do?
I am however encouraged by the fact that Ian bought more shares.

YYY

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 1:38pm #38
TecsFanEE
EESUrient
Registered: Sep, 2010
Last visit: Wed, 21 Mar 2012
Posts: 1989

CapacitorMan wrote:

I dont think there was much reality to that estimate...it was a hoped for target to be in line with what the ZENN car at the time needed. My guess is that the direct costs will be 10k.

I could be wrong, probably am, but I thought it was part of the contract with Zenn to have a preset price. Is that incorrect?


Fracking Beats Walking! - WCushman
The problem with the cost of healthcare is the cost of healthcare! - TecsFanee

Too much Tech not enough Tec.

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 1:40pm #39
TecsFanEE
EESUrient
Registered: Sep, 2010
Last visit: Wed, 21 Mar 2012
Posts: 1989

ricinro wrote:

TecFan wrote:

One more thing. Why did DW set the price significantly lower than lithium batteries? There would be no need to even if it just had unlimited recharges and equal ED it would be a huge improvement. Let alone higher ED and unlimited recharges, that would mean you should price it higher or if you are a saint equal. With ground breaking tech you never price it lower than its lesser competitors at first. You dont base price on manufacturing costs, you base it on value compared to what else is on the market for as long as you can.

Something about that really bothers my gut. Should it?

he is not a retailer.

Yeah but he estimated it at a price that is less than even the wholesale price of lithium batteries.

Plus, what is to keep him from becoming a retailer in markets outside of what he has contracted to Lockheed or Zenn or any other company?

I mean retailing this thing himself whereever he can seems like a no brainer. This thing, if works as advertised, would sell itself.


Fracking Beats Walking! - WCushman
The problem with the cost of healthcare is the cost of healthcare! - TecsFanee

Too much Tech not enough Tec.

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 1:51pm #40
seslaprime
EESUrient
Eagle
Registered: Aug, 2008
Last visit: Tue, 27 Nov 2012
Posts: 2256

Yeah, they have it. DW said in the beginning Prototypes were built and tested. you have to think DW is out and out lier to think there is not now nor ever was any prototype.

Science is not well enough understood to be skeptic over science. DW and CN are too knowlegable and respected in this field to think they dont understand their own invention or that they would be involved in group lying.

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 1:54pm #41
ricinro
EExhilarating
Rich-ricinro
Registered: Aug, 2008
Last visit: Sun, 21 Apr 2013
Posts: 3302

I suspect that EEStor will be making its money on production lines. The EESU will be a commodity. He benefits more from volume.


Thanks BTV for the blog

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 2:00pm #42
CapMan
EESUrient
Registered: Aug, 2008
Last visit: Thu, 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1447

ricinro wrote:

I suspect that EEStor will be making its money on production lines. The EESU will be a commodity. He benefits more from volume.

Which is a very good point.

But one thing that troubles me, is that model only workd if you can scale. In our wet chemistry, we'd go from liter flasks, to 500 liter tanks, to continuous pipeline reactors.

But DW seems to insist on having replicatable modules. How does that provide volume price reduction?


CapMan
email: ---

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 2:01pm #43
TecsFanEE
EESUrient
Registered: Sep, 2010
Last visit: Wed, 21 Mar 2012
Posts: 1989

ricinro wrote:

I suspect that EEStor will be making its money on production lines. The EESU will be a commodity. He benefits more from volume.

That doesnt make sense to me. If anything he would benefit from outsourcing production and then selling the end product.

Do you see battery manufacturers setting up production lines in GM or Ford? Why not? Because it doesnt make sense. It is better to have one production facility running close to full capacity than it is to have production facilities spread out at the different car plants.

It wouldnt become a commodity until other companies could produce an equivalent product at a lower price. When you have a technology that outpaces ever other competitor by at least a factor of two there is no reason to treat it as a commodity.

Can you give any example in history where a ground breaking technology that is patent protected gets priced/treated as a commodity?


Fracking Beats Walking! - WCushman
The problem with the cost of healthcare is the cost of healthcare! - TecsFanee

Too much Tech not enough Tec.

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 2:05pm #44
ricinro
EExhilarating
Rich-ricinro
Registered: Aug, 2008
Last visit: Sun, 21 Apr 2013
Posts: 3302

You bring up good points for a new topic tecfan. I do think the volt has a dedicated battery manufacture plant.

this topic was a faith -testimony revival


Thanks BTV for the blog

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 2:10pm #45
KimEE
EExhilarating
Kimee2
Registered: Aug, 2010
Last visit: Thu, 23 May 2013
Posts: 6

Yes, I believe there is a working prototype. It is fun to see you freakin' geniuses duke it out even if I don't understand the science.
Yes, I am invested and would buy more if I could.
Been following since early 2008 when my boss happened to come across an article about EEStor and told me about it. Will owe him a finder's fee on reveal day!
Can't help myself...I feel drawn to drive by the EEStor facility when I am back home. Go, DW. Go!


Sages Weir, Clifford & Nelson. I bow to their greatness.

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 2:13pm #46
TecsFanEE
EESUrient
Registered: Sep, 2010
Last visit: Wed, 21 Mar 2012
Posts: 1989

My understanding is that GM is assembling battery packs for the Volt onsite. They actually get the cells from LG and then put the battery pack together. I dont think they are producing the lithium cells onsite.

One reason they wouldnt produce lithium cells on site is because they dont want to be married to a particular cell. They want to be able to switch to better energy storage cells as they become available.

Article wrote:

GMs main point of the conference was reiterate that they are doing the pack design, engineering, and software controls in-house. So while LG or someone else may make an excellent cell, GM intends to make the best pack and become the worlds best electric car battery make maker. This gives them competitive advantage over car companies that are “married” to a specific cell supplier. Gray is convinced batteries will continue to advance in the future and right now GM is testing cells from “more than a dozen suppliers.”

http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/19/gm-volt-battery-u...

Granted this article is a year old and I found it a bit confusing, but it seems to say they are producing battery packs as oppposed to the actual cells.


Fracking Beats Walking! - WCushman
The problem with the cost of healthcare is the cost of healthcare! - TecsFanee

Too much Tech not enough Tec.

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 2:15pm #47
ricinro
EExhilarating
Rich-ricinro
Registered: Aug, 2008
Last visit: Sun, 21 Apr 2013
Posts: 3302

kimEE,

Will we all someday stand before the silver gates of EESUs creator and bow down on a sunday? (workdays are out if they got security)


Thanks BTV for the blog

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 2:19pm #48
wcushman
EESUrient
Cisne-negro2
Registered: Jul, 2009
Last visit: Thu, 10 Jan 2013
Posts: 2385

B_W_Rage wrote:

I do.

I have been told I am wrong so many times that I now start the conversation that I am probably wrong. However, only after you accept failure can you succeed. I keep hatching Black Swans since I dont fear to fail. I bet on Black Swans and believe in Black Swans. Eestor is the ultimate Black Swan.

You are either a Black Swan person or you are a follower. Black Swans are wrong 99% of the time but when they are right they change the world. DW is a Black Swan person lets hope he is right.

Right on !!!


"All I want to know is where I will die so that I will never go there." Unknown wise man

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 2:26pm #49
e'er
EESUrient
Woodford_reduced
Registered: Jan, 2009
Last visit: Tue, 12 Feb 2013
Posts: 1665

I believe they have what they have claim to have. I'm less confident that they will figure out a way to mass produce it and have a customer selling their product before some other technology makes their product obsolete. And yes, I'm still here reading, although I don't post near as much as I used to. I simply don't care to get into petty arguments with agenda driven haters.


You tell me.

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 2:35pm #50
Paulcummings55
EEcclesiastical
Fly_the_carver_one_
Registered: Aug, 2008
Last visit: Mon, 20 Jan 2014
Posts: 1414

zawy wrote:

How many people think there is at least a 10% chance that a prototype of the EESU exists?

You use the present tense on this question, which really should have two choices

HAD a prototype- 99.5% certain
HAVE a prototype- 20-50% certain
I do not own any stock in ZENN
I have been a member since Sept '09, but have lurked here and at the previous blog since B started them.


Paul C in Austin
"The calm before the Eestorm"

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 2:39pm #51
ONeil
EESUrient
Registered: Aug, 2008
Last visit: Thu, 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 2149

Innishfad: I like the description speculator. It fits a large number of the people posting on this thread. A new party is born ... the speculators.


Just assume everything I say about EEStor includes the phrase "if it works".
... 7 on the Lens scale (up from a low of 1)

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 6:49pm #52
dardog
EExpert
Registered: Sep, 2008
Last visit: Tue, 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 164

CapMan wrote:

My guess is that the direct costs will be 10k.

If you are correct then that works out to a production cost of approximately $90/kg. ($10,000/110kg of components per 52kwh EESU) In order for EEStor to be able to sell EESUs at $100/kwh, they will require an energy density of about 1.5kwh/kg, or 4X of the ED shown in the EESU patent. It will be interesting to see what ED the EESU actually has (assuming it exists)

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 7:05pm #53
supamark
EEcclesiastical
Supa_avatar
Registered: Dec, 2009
Last visit: Sat, 17 Mar 2012
Posts: 1240

I still think it's quite possible. I have no investment in Zenn.

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 7:43pm #54
AD2
EEcclesiastical
Eestortoise
Registered: Oct, 2008
Last visit: Tue, 05 Feb 2013
Posts: 1136

zawy wrote:

Before saying you've been here more than 3 years (I see 3 believers so far), please remember this web site started in August 2008, so you have to remember the switch over from the original blog.

I've been here a while Zawy, as have you. Since the days of bariumtitanate.blogspot.com.

I'm pretty sure EEStor has built that prototype. I say DW is no liar, whatever his other faults may be.

Successful commercialisation of this device is another issue entirely, and of that I remain less certain. But I am hopeful enough to hang in there.

I understand why you have your views, and enjoy reading your thoughts on many other subjects. On EEStor it looks like my intuition and reading of events is telling me a different story to yours. That's all. It's no big deal.

Time will tell – hopefully, as I will admit to being a bit bored of waiting.


It's time for EEStor to come out of its shell.

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 7:53pm #55
CapMan
EESUrient
Registered: Aug, 2008
Last visit: Thu, 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1447

ricinro wrote:

kimEE,

Will we all someday stand before the silver gates of EESUs creator and bow down on a sunday? (workdays are out if they got security)

Maybe not so much silver but all the aluminum they will have purchased in speculation, along with the barite mines.

; )


CapMan
email: ---

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 8:50pm #56
eggdescrambler
EESUrient
Horse
Registered: Oct, 2008
Last visit: Thu, 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 1652

I'm so depressed! I mean, how many times do I have to sell all my shares of Zenn to convince you...


Each month, Dick Weir moves 50% closer to his goal. But when he does: I'll be ready to kick the door and get out of the barn upon reveal. Ron Paul 2012!

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 8:59pm #57
EEken
EErudite
Registered: Aug, 2008
Last visit: Sat, 27 Apr 2013
Posts: 63

I'm still IN.

I don't doubt the technology, but I am worried about the challenges of mass production and bringing it to market.

It's a gamble and a risk. I don't suggest people buy Zenn with anything more then what they are willing to lose. That being said the rewards for getting in on the ground floor of this thing could be huge.


My personal website http://kennyrowe.org

7.5 on Lens scale. Zenn share holder.

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 9:38pm #58
DaveM
EEuphoric
Img_5775
Registered: Jul, 2009
Last visit: Fri, 18 Jul 2014
Posts: 787

I have been here since 2009, I own Zenn shares. I think it is very likely that prototypes exist (>90%). I have put my time in on the science, and although my expertise is in a very different field, I have personally experienced the process of scientific discovery and seen it profoundly change how we see a particular part of the world. The fact that these things happen less often in engineering and physics than in other fields doesn't mean that they can't happen. I think the prepoderance of the available evidence (such as it is), indicates that EEStor has what they say they have. Producing it in bulk for $100/kWh is another matter, I don't think that question can currently be answered based on the information we have.


"Most people don't believe something can happen until it already has." Max Brooks, World War Z.

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 11:05pm #59
Y_Po
EExhilarating
Zawy_y_go
Registered: May, 2009
Last visit: Thu, 13 Feb 2014
Posts: 5648

It's amazing how believers proclaim 80-90% likelihood of EESU when according to B himself odds given by people involved with institutional investor are 1 in 50 against EEStor.


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Thu, 14 Apr 2011, 11:37pm #60
TimBitts649
EEndearing
Tweety_bird
Registered: Dec, 2009
Last visit: Tue, 28 May 2013
Posts: 968

Po, you really think you can put a number to it? Like "institutional Investors are 1 in 50 against Eestor"?

That's the stupidest thing I've heard, in a while. Like, you can trust institutional investors, to come up with a number like that? Like they know the answer to that? Fluck, you are stupid.

People that work at banks, Institutional Investors, can tell you that, for high risk ventures of this sort, about 49 fail, for every 1 that succeeds. That's obviously your thinking. Do you really think that proves anything? These institutional investors cannot tell WHICH of the 50 will fail or succeed, only that 49 will not work. So, in other words, they know NOTHING about what makes any one of these work, or fail.

So, you rely on these twits, and their half-assed reasoning, to piggy back on their idiocy, and come up with your own half-assed reasoning?

Think, man, think.

Fruck, you are a twit.

Go back to whatever university you went to, and demand your money back. They did a bad job, teaching you to think.

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