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apparently our military made the mistake of buying cheap crap from China...

http://www.dailytech.com/US+GOA+40+Percent+of+D...

we should never outsource defence mfg, and especially never to a country like the PRC where we know for a fact substandard parts will result.

The problem is that we have moved all our manufacturing to China.

We have nothing but Chinese components in all our products.

Blame U.S. business, not the Defense Department.

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Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

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wasn't there a law about this sort of thing, something along the lines of all military supplies must be mfg'd in the USA?

well, there certainly should be. It would also provide a lot of jobs. to americans.

The US military is left holding the bag? So who got the gold?
I guess our wages, standards, regulations, rights and security can't compete with the needs (profits) of Corporations and the wealthy.

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Texan bought fake Cisco converters for $25 and sold to marines for ~$600. Nice business they got there. I wonder if he is relative of Weir. Looks like the guy is not even US citizen, he is Saudi

Last edited Fri, 17 Jun 2011, 10:01pm by Y_Po

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I support free trade and globalization. If china can make something more efficiently let them make it, it allows American labor to concentrate on something else they are more efficient in, greater global wealth is created, higher living standards across the board take place.

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sammyn wrote:

I support free trade and globalization. If china can make something more efficiently let them make it, it allows American labor to concentrate on something else they are more efficient in, greater global wealth is created, higher living standards across the board take place.

But the thing is, china can make everything more "efficiently"

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eevestor999 wrote:

The problem is that we have moved all our manufacturing to China.

We have nothing but Chinese components in all our products.

Blame U.S. business, not the Defense Department.

Exactly. When we made most of our things in the 50's only daddy had to work and mommy stayed home days caring for kids. Now they both have to work and sometimes multiple jobs. The teenagers disconnected from the parents build bombs in their basements and become beligerent when you tell them to get the F off their XBox 360. The executives get the big money and the highly needed manufacturing jobs are gone. If we made 1/3rd of what we import from China unemployment would be much lower. We need a modern day robin hood to steal from the rich and give back to the poor. I don't mean money but policies/incentives to restore manufacturing. The middle class is shrinking into a class between poor/middle. Don't tell me it's a world economy now, I realize that. It is a sellout of America. Friends with college degrees can't even find work. In our small town crime is up 50% in the last 2 years. People breaking into houses to sell something on ebay just to eat. In the 50-70's virtually anyone with a BS or better was gainfully employed. Now they're competing with 100 applicants for one position. How do you guys feel that are my age 45-55 or so. Do you remember the good ole slightly less stressful times? Our country is run and ruled by a few powerful fatcat companies/industries which enjoy and relish their cheap labor at the expense of Americans who just want a freaking job that they're not "over" or "under" qualified for! Damn it we need change. Chime in people and let me know how you'd fix this real unemployment 10-15% mess. Oh ya I shouldn't complain because it is much higher in Mexico. Oh ya Nafta was supposed to help that situation. Elsewhere: "Hello my name is Ramdas" please turn your modem off and then turn it back on". Imagine if England hadn't colonized India years ago exposing them to English we'd still have customer support in the U.S.! Just our friggin luck! I hadn't been in a boat in four years and I got hit in the head by an Asian Carp jumping in my buddies boat! I feel helpless RANT over. How would you fix this mess? You too spot on ricinro...

Last edited Fri, 17 Jun 2011, 10:17pm by hoarybat

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US can't compete with Chinese manufacturing because US-based multinationals have built all-new factories in the PRC in the last twenty-some years - and practically no new factories here.

To do this, they had to take minority ownership in the new "Chinese" companies - and the PLA of course gets their cut.

sammyn wrote:

I support free trade and globalization. If china can make something more efficiently let them make it, it allows American labor to concentrate on something else they are more efficient in, greater global wealth is created, higher living standards across the board take place.

Efficiently barely better no way. The majority of these products especially if they have moving parts, break in a fraction of the time they used to. The earth is becoming a toxic wasted dump filled with broken made in china crap. My friend bought an electric scooter of course made in China for $100 since it was scratched or dented. Wow a 36 volt scooter 20mph ridden to work for one year before the lead acid batteries died. To replace the batteries it cost nearly as much as the whole damn scooter. Now he has to pay to dispose of it. CHina lost(had stolen from them) 120 billion and they're still in business: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13...

Last edited Fri, 17 Jun 2011, 10:47pm by hoarybat

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Hold on, we are 10 years from robots capable to replace dirt cheap human robots from China.

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sammyn wrote:

I support free trade and globalization. If china can make something more efficiently let them make it, it allows American labor to concentrate on something else they are more efficient in, greater global wealth is created, higher living standards across the board take place.

The labor in china is slave labor. Optimists say china has pulled 400mil people out of poverty and only 800mil more to go. I say free the slaves.

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US Military Standards came out of WW2. That's when we got the mil-spec system and when the USA seriously grappled with quality. The Perry memo in 93 made use of military grade parts require extra paperwork.

I've been to a China high-tech manufacturing facility. They lack any kind of quality literacy. China will need their own version of W.E. Deming to come show them the way.

Corporations are backshoring MFG to the US due to quality, distance, IP, and communications issues.

link
'nother link
ok, one more

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Yet China made their version of F22, not too bad

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we need to help them test it.

Round 1, FIGHT!

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It's not ready for such tests yet, but I think they flew it and it did not crash.

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Specification and checking against spec are all that is needed. How did the Japanese make superior cars? Quality control.

A fool and his money are soon parted :-)

kind regards
ei

Y_Po wrote:

Hold on, we are 10 years from robots capable to replace dirt cheap human robots from China.

And we always have been!

Y_Po wrote:

Texan bought fake Cisco converters for $25 and sold to marines for ~$600. Nice business they got there. I wonder if he is relative of Weir. Looks like the guy is not even US citizen, he is Saudi

Yes. It is funny this article is using the product of US greed and laxity as fodder for isolationism. Good things won't always happen when the military buys from people like that Texan and seslaprime.

They say: "Hey Chinese manufacturer, I would like this part, I will not check the quality (just tell me it is acceptable and I'm good) or even receive the shipment. What can you do to offer XX price? ... What, you can offer XX + 200 for quality product or XX - 200 for other acceptable stuff? I'll take the other stuff." *hint, hint, wink, wink*

Just as a reminder; the US military is notorious for providing crap equipment to soldiers. Been a long time now.

Last edited Sat, 18 Jun 2011, 2:37am by student

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hoarybat wrote:

eevestor999 wrote:

The problem is that we have moved all our manufacturing to China.

We have nothing but Chinese components in all our products.

Blame U.S. business, not the Defense Department.

Exactly. When we made most of our things in the 50's only daddy had to work and mommy stayed home days caring for kids. Now they both have to work and sometimes multiple jobs. The teenagers disconnected from the parents build bombs in their basements and become beligerent when you tell them to get the F off their XBox 360. The executives get the big money and the highly needed manufacturing jobs are gone. If we made 1/3rd of what we import from China unemployment would be much lower. We need a modern day robin hood to steal from the rich and give back to the poor. I don't mean money but policies/incentives to restore manufacturing. The middle class is shrinking into a class between poor/middle. Don't tell me it's a world economy now, I realize that. It is a sellout of America. Friends with college degrees can't even find work. In our small town crime is up 50% in the last 2 years. People breaking into houses to sell something on ebay just to eat. In the 50-70's virtually anyone with a BS or better was gainfully employed. Now they're competing with 100 applicants for one position. How do you guys feel that are my age 45-55 or so. Do you remember the good ole slightly less stressful times? Our country is run and ruled by a few powerful fatcat companies/industries which enjoy and relish their cheap labor at the expense of Americans who just want a freaking job that they're not "over" or "under" qualified for! Damn it we need change. Chime in people and let me know how you'd fix this real unemployment 10-15% mess. Oh ya I shouldn't complain because it is much higher in Mexico. Oh ya Nafta was supposed to help that situation. Elsewhere: "Hello my name is Ramdas" please turn your modem off and then turn it back on". Imagine if England hadn't colonized India years ago exposing them to English we'd still have customer support in the U.S.! Just our friggin luck! I hadn't been in a boat in four years and I got hit in the head by an Asian Carp jumping in my buddies boat! I feel helpless RANT over. How would you fix this mess? You too spot on ricinro...

GPS Innovation Special
Yep, Ricinro is correct.
For 34 years from 1953 to 1987 Government Spending in R&D grew at 4.9%. For the next 21 years from 1987 to 2008, it grew at 0.3%. Yes, Reagan and the Bushes told folks big government is bad... and many believed it.
We need balance. We swung too far to the right. Hell, Nixon and Reagan wouldn't get through a Republican primary today. Barry Goldwater? Eisenhower?

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By exporting virtually All US manufacturing to China, US companies and Corporations have, in effect, Sold the US industry and American Jobs (Out).

Sure, the damage can be reversed, and China still has a ways to go with Quality Controls, But We have done one thing that is (irreversable), Made the Chinese Aware that they Are Human just like us, and can do Anything we can do. Yes, the sleeping (industrial) giant has been awaken Early.

And US Corporations will be the biggest Losers in this revolution.

Down the drain along with American Jobs. America Must reinvent a New industrial revolution.

eestorblog wrote:

sammyn wrote:

I support free trade and globalization. If china can make something more efficiently let them make it, it allows American labor to concentrate on something else they are more efficient in, greater global wealth is created, higher living standards across the board take place.

The labor in china is slave labor. Optimists say china has pulled 400mil people out of poverty and only 800mil more to go. I say free the slaves.

I have made it a point to boycott Chinese goods for about 25 years. Of course it is impossible to fully boycott, but I do look at labels and put a lot of stuff back. My sunglasses were made in Germany... pajamas in Thailand. Check those frozen shrimp next time you are in the supermarket...

What about information security?
In the 1980 and 1990's, image processing/photo copying hardware and software manufactured in Israel was not allowed in secure areas at TRW.

The DCIS investigation head James Ives cited an incident in which a Texan in January 2010 was found guilty of selling counterfeit Cisco Systems Inc. (CSCO) "Gigabit Interface Converters" to the Marine Corps for use in Iraq. Bought from a Hong Kong-based Chinese vendor, the contractor obtained the systems for $25 USD a piece and resold 200 of them to the Marines for $595 a piece -- for a total of $114,000 USD in profit before applicable taxes.

Come on, really? Who is asleep at the switch? I recently installed a high end Cisco device. I opened the package, and the mounting hardware was made in China. What is a guy to do? I wondered about electronic components in the device, but did not go so far as to find out if any of them are manufactured in China.

I understand this story is about a criminal enterprise. That said, I sure hope someone is minding the store and is not allowing Chinese electronic components and/or internet switching devices to be installed... particularly at defense contractors and military installations. Jeeze.

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EEventually wrote:

US Military Standards came out of WW2. That's when we got the mil-spec system and when the USA seriously grappled with quality. The Perry memo in 93 made use of military grade parts require extra paperwork.

I've been to a China high-tech manufacturing facility. They lack any kind of quality literacy. China will need their own version of W.E. Deming to come show them the way.

Corporations are backshoring MFG to the US due to quality, distance, IP, and communications issues.

link
'nother link
ok, one more

Thank you for those great links EEventually.

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EEventually wrote:

I've been to a China high-tech manufacturing facility. They lack any kind of quality literacy. China will need their own version of W.E. Deming to come show them the way.

Talk about a great guy.

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sammyn wrote:

I support free trade and globalization. If china can make something more efficiently let them make it, it allows American labor to concentrate on something else they are more efficient in, greater global wealth is created, higher living standards across the board take place.

Yes, Flipping hamburgers. sucking up unemployment + welfare & mowing lawns.

Grizz

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EEventually wrote:

Corporations are backshoring MFG to the US due to quality, distance, IP, and communications issues.

link
'nother link
ok, one more

I suggest this is a misunderstood issue. A better interpretation might be as follows:

1) Corporations want to outsource and or move the business in part or whole.
2) Some realistic (current) limits are being realized. Blindly following any particular path is not smart.
3) Chinese are learning and more and more corporations are building major R&D centers in the PRC --- and these two factors mean quality is and will continue to improve - as well as removing the distance issue.
4) Item 1 will be increasingly doable as time progresses.

Last edited Sat, 18 Jun 2011, 7:09am by student

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You guys have missed the whole point of the article. The article is about counterfeit parts getting into the supply chain.

That is Chinese made forgeries that are labeled as US made parts. There is not attempt to make the forgeries at the quality level of the original. The idea is to make them at a lower quality level and lower price then get the high quality price through fraud.

The fraud is aided by the gray market supply channel.

I have first hand experience of this. I could not get the chip I needed in time from a licensed distributor so I went to the gray market and bought the chip there. It passed all my tests in house. In the field they started failing. We sent a failed chip to the factory for analysis. They took it apart. The die in it was not made in the manufacture's factory. Someone had taken an inferior component with the same pinout and remarked it with a different part number. Fraud pure and simple but more sophisticated than most.

The moral is don't buy parts on the gray market and you can't be sure that the gray market part has not been fraudulently introduced into the licensed distributor via employee theft and substitution.

That China is the source of the forgeries is well documented.

Student, your government is full of fraud and it filters down to permeate all of life in China. If it is any consolations it seems today that the west is trying to imitated China as we get more fraudulent in our Government that is aided and abetted by the press and it filters into banking.

As to EEventually's remarks as China lacking a "Quality Culture" he is correct. This is not referring to Culture in general rather to the Quality Control issues in a manufacturing context. Japan as a country was the first to implement Deming's (A US citizen and quality consultant) concepts. As a result of this Japan manufacturers starting making much higher quality parts compared to US manufacturers. The US lacked a "Quality Culture" at the level of the Japanese for a long time. The last 30 years has seen wholesale adoption of the Japanese Manufacturing Methods in the US. The Japanese economy has been stagnant as US manufactures caught up and surpassed Japanese levels of quality.

China needs to implement Deming's Japanese and American quality methods. It takes a long time to do it. I am quite sure that the Chinese People can do it. The question is when. Fraud and cover-up is the exact opposite of the Truth and Openness required to implement Deming.

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Sean wrote:

Y_Po wrote:

Yet China made their version of F22, not too bad

Now if they could only come up with an "Original" design instead of copying one of ours, I would be really impressed.

it's too late for that, US has the original.

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EEventually wrote:

I've been to a China high-tech manufacturing facility. They lack any kind of quality literacy. China will need their own version of W.E. Deming to come show them the way.

... or Genichi Taguchi. He took it one step further and demonstrated that poor quality has a cost to society as a whole beyond just a pissed off customer with a broken part. I don't think China will be listening to anything the Japanese have to say anytime soon though.