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OT) Chinese invent counterfeit store to sell counterfeit electronics « Consumer Electronics « Industry Applications
 
Thu, 21 Jul 2011, 11:28pm #1
Lensman
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Chinese blogger "BirdAbroad" reports not merely some counterfeit Apple Computers products, but a fake Apple store selling those counterfeits!

I suppose the Chinese are to be "congratulated" for inventing one thing: An innovative way to market their pirated products!

Full article: Are you listening, Steve Jobs?


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Fri, 22 Jul 2011, 4:15am #2
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I expect much if not all of Apple's products are made in China anyway, and as apple are apparently quite happy to allow these stores to trade there, why get uptight about it?

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Fri, 22 Jul 2011, 8:39am #3
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Didnt Bill Gate say a while ago that 80% or so of the Microsoft installations in China were fake?


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Fri, 22 Jul 2011, 9:47am #4
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Tec wrote:

I expect much if not all of Apple's products are made in China anyway, and as apple are apparently quite happy to allow these stores to trade there, why get uptight about it?

Because Apple doesn't own the manufacturers and ~80% of the amount that you pay for apple products like phones is for Apple IP not for the mfg. So this allows the stores to collect the 80% of the price that normally goes to Apple.

Get it now? (probably not)

Tec you seem more feeble minded than the last time you wrote. Are you ok? Or maybe you've been out in that hot garden sun too much?

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Fri, 22 Jul 2011, 10:27am #5
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Well i haven't lost my faculties to the extent that I am going to get upset at Apple losing money.

I wonder how much of Apple is chinese owned anyway?

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Fri, 22 Jul 2011, 12:25pm #6
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More photos of the fake Apple store.


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Fri, 22 Jul 2011, 6:54pm #7
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When customers purchase anything, they are told they will receive a receipt later. One girl who had bought a Mac laptop wanted to return her purchase and was told she could not do that without a receipt.

Some of the merchandise is genuine Apple while other things are clones. The fake stores have the words "Apple Store" above the bitten apple logo while real Apple stores only have the logo.

The employees maintain they are doing nothing wrong because anyone can give a store whatever appearance they wish. If the public believes they are buying an Apple product from a genuine Apple outlet, that is their problem, not the store's problem.


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Fri, 22 Jul 2011, 9:45pm #8
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wcushman wrote:

The employees maintain they are doing nothing wrong because anyone can give a store whatever appearance they wish. If the public believes they are buying an Apple product from a genuine Apple outlet, that is their problem, not the store's problem.

[edit] The (reported) attitude of the store employees [/edit] seems to be the same attitude this forum's "50-cent-student" displays; caveat emptor taken to a ridiculous extreme. This lack of responsibility is just a reminder that, in many ways, China is still a third-world country.

Last edited Sun, 24 Jul 2011, 10:57am by Lensman


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Fri, 22 Jul 2011, 10:05pm #9
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wcushman isn't so far off.

There is a problem approaching this with a preset viewpoint. Seslaprime (who happily sold black market Apple products) and several news outlets are of the opinion one can no longer purchase black market Apple products.

Many of these stores are simply resellers of Apple products. Same genuine products - which can't be black market as Apple put excellent controls in place. If one actually checked the price, one would see the products selling at a premium to the official price here in the PRC.

Many US based resellers use the Apple logo. I have no idea of PRC law on using the logo of brands you sell, but I suspect it isn't much more restrictive than in the US where you can see Apple's logo everywhere on the net.

And you can get a receipt. All Chinese know this. The reason some stores prefer not to provide receipts if at all possible is due to the tax value. Along with a receipt is a tax receipt which is the basis for deductions. Keeping the tax receipt allows the store to lower its tax burden and or sell the receipts on the tax receipt black market.

As for the fakes, they look nothing like Apple products. I haven't heard of a single Chinese who purchased a fake thinking it was the real thing. Apple has commercials all over TV, the Internet, and billboards here. Pretty easy to differentiate. The purchasers of fakes want the fake, not Apple products.

Last edited Fri, 22 Jul 2011, 10:11pm by student


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Fri, 22 Jul 2011, 11:34pm #10
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Lensman wrote:

wcushman wrote:

The employees maintain they are doing nothing wrong because anyone can give a store whatever appearance they wish. If the public believes they are buying an Apple product from a genuine Apple outlet, that is their problem, not the store's problem.

That seems to be the same attitude this forum's "50-cent-student" displays; caveat emptor taken to a ridiculous extreme. This lack of responsibility is just a reminder that, in many ways, China is still a third-world country.

I did not intend to indicate that I approved of the practice. I was just reporting about the attitude of the store employees (not the owners). It took a lot of searching, but I found the source of what I reported. It was an article which came from Reuters.
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/10288...

I know a Colombian girl married to an American here. She is totally ignorant of everything to do with patents, copyrights and taxes of any kind. For 3 months she was raking in a fortune selling on Amazon what she advertised as "iPod Nano CLONES". Her cost was about $20 each including shipping from China, and she was selling them for $50 + shipping each just as fast as she could address them. Amazon cancelled her account because of the number of complaints due to the fact that the "CLONES" (which were advertised as clones) were not genuine Apple products. Many Americans apparently do not understand the meaning of the word, "CLONE".

I informed her that due to her Florida nexus, she needed to collect and pay sales taxes for Florida sales. She also needed to pay herself a suitable salary for the purpose of collecting and remitting FICA and Medicare taxes (both her portion and the portion to be paid by the business, Florida and Federal unemployment taxes, and that she needed to maintain a proper set of books so she could report and pay Florida income taxes on a business in addition to Federal income taxes. She had a dazed look when I tried to explain the obligations she had assumed by operating a business.

Last edited Sat, 23 Jul 2011, 12:08am by wcushman


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Sat, 23 Jul 2011, 10:05pm #11
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wcushman wrote:

I did not intend to indicate that I approved of the practice. I was just reporting about the attitude of the store employees (not the owners).

I didn't think you were, wcushman. I was referring to the (reported) attitude of the store's employees, not your personal attitude. (And I just edited the post you're responding to, to make that more clear.)

Once again it's both amusing and informative to read 50-cent-student's apologia for China's widespread and flagrant piracy. Altho 50-cent-student appears well-informed on many issues, he appears surprisingly naive regarding just how much his posts reveal about the dark, ugly side of Chinese society.

I think the Chinese propaganda Media Aircraft Carrier has a leaky hull!

Last edited Sun, 24 Jul 2011, 10:58am by Lensman


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Sun, 24 Jul 2011, 1:44am #12
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SpambotMan spamming away I see...

As stated, it's reselling of Apple products. No known legal issues I'm aware of.


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Sun, 24 Jul 2011, 2:36am #13
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apple branding is important to them. they decided that closed source exclusivity was valuble to them from the early days of personal computing. this is a well known story for those who look at apple vs IBM.

they have apple products in an apple store precisely because they believe the brand strong enough to bring in consumers who are willing to shop from a single source. the advantage is the products don't share storefront space with cheaper competing products.

respect or understanding matters not. make apple suffer enough losses and they will end their chinese transactions. that simple. when and if this happens, the first hint will be new models neither manufactured nor marketed in china. it's up to apple. china is busy making these self-imposed embargoes one company at a time. the growing middle class in china will price itself out of its own false markets. in 10 years, it will be over and china will have empty trains delivering air between empty cities. the middle class will be fleeting. there is already fear that stratification of incomes will create the kind of social divide that has historically ended with social revolution in china. my suggestion for china is to stop trying to be occidental. it is not who you are. be communist. it works for you. let others be creative because you obviously cannot value such a thing. its ok. better to survive by being who you are. the ultimate duty of the individual is to the collective. its in your soul. go with it and stop pretending to be western.


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Sun, 24 Jul 2011, 11:14am #14
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I found this article today:

The Fifty Cents Party Training Manual

ChinaGeeks translates a satirical training manual for the “fifty cent party,” or government-hired Internet commentators who post anonymous comments to try to sway public opinion:

Comment: This chicken egg tastes disgusting.
Response: The duck egg next door is even worse tasting, how could you not mention this?

Comment: This chicken egg tastes disgusting.
Response: Please make a constructive comment, if you’ve got talent then lay a better tasting egg yourself.

Comment: This chicken egg tastes disgusting.
Response: This egg was laid by an industrious, courageous, good, kind, honest, and upright chicken!

Comment: This chicken egg tastes disgusting.
Response: It’s way better than last year’s egg.

Comment: This chicken egg tastes disgusting.
Response: You grew up [by] eating this egg, what right do you have to say it tastes bad?

Considering 50-cent-student's posts on this issue, they should add:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comment: This chicken egg tastes disgusting.
Response: It's your own fault for buying a rotten chicken egg. The farmer is perfectly within his rights to mix up fresh and rotten eggs in the same carton. It's the responsibility of the buyer to carefully inspect each individual egg to make sure it's fresh before he buys it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g194/Lensman03/Smileys/SmileyBigGrinBounce.gif


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Sun, 24 Jul 2011, 11:40am #15
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SpambotMan,

There are many resellers of Apple products. Putting counterfeit product in the same store would harm the reseller's image (as Seslaprime's was harmed when the quality of his counterfeits dropped). I haven't met anyone stupid enough to be unable to tell the difference (different shape and software).


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Sun, 24 Jul 2011, 12:53pm #16
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Comment: This chicken egg tastes disgusting.
Response: Boy, are you stupid for buying a rotten chicken egg! I've never met anyone who is so stupid that he can't tell the difference between fresh and rotten before the shell is cracked open.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The Chinese propaganda Media Aircraft Carrier has torpedoed itself, and is sinking fast...


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Sun, 24 Jul 2011, 8:33pm #17
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SpambotMan,

You brainless spam-spewing wad of pig-foot-crud. That is why the resellers only sell genuine Apple products.


Bill Nye says limits for a dielectric are simply what have been demonstrated to date.


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Sun, 24 Jul 2011, 10:29pm #18
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that was a nickel


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Sun, 24 Jul 2011, 11:05pm #19
seslaprime
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student wrote:

Seslaprime (who happily sold black market Apple products).

This is a classic example of blatant (propaganda). Student likes to (twist) truth at every opportunity.

Fact is, the Chinese in general like to twist everything so they can avoid the {embarrassment} of the (what the west considers) crimes they continuously commit against western IP's. So they act like stealing a company's IP is OK as long as it is this or that.

but in the west, Stealing is stealing, no matter how you wrap it.

Apple, with the aid of US customs, has intercepted and destroyed literally $Billions$ in Chinese counterfit apple goods. which is only a small fraction of the total load which includes .... well Everything....

So student, you can spread your lies but they are only that... lies. and everyone here know it well.

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Sun, 24 Jul 2011, 11:09pm #20
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Hi Student,

Ah what a delightful exchange of posts :-)

In English we normally use the word "shit" rather than "pig-foot-crud".

I know not all pig-foot-crud is shit. But some may be.

Or because Lens is such a sophisticated blogger, is there some other delicate nuance you are trying to impart?

kind regards
ei

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Sun, 24 Jul 2011, 11:41pm #21
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Give it up seslaprime.

Everyone knows you were buying and selling counterfeit Apple products (perfect ones) and then switched to lower quality counterfeit products.

As you said; stealing is stealing, no matter how you wrap it.


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Mon, 25 Jul 2011, 12:20am #22
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This story, about the fake Apple store, has gone viral, and has forced Chinese officials to investigate. Here are a few reports about this growing story:

From cnet.com: Reports: China investigating Apple Store knockoffs

From StamfordAdvocate.com: China officials find 5 fake Apple stores in 1 city

From China Realtime Report: Fake Apple Store Clerk Speaks Out

From Reuters: Fake Apple Store even fools staff

But much more important is this thoughtful commentary/analysis from Forbes.com: China’s Tainted Capitalism is Catching up with Apple Computer

I hope everyone will read the full article. But here are a few excerpts:

China’s rising business community views capitalism as a system of gross and unscrupulous profiteering rather than a system of value and wealth creation—a perception that dominates every industry and every aspect of the Chinese economy. In the chemical industry, factories freely pollute rivers, lakes, and the air with dangerous chemicals, placing the country near the top of the world pollution list. In the mining industry, management routinely compromises safety standards for profit, placing the country, again, near the top of the world’s work-related accident list. In the banking industry, bank managers rarely miss the opportunity to set-up fly-by-night schemes.

China’s capitalism is tainted with corruption, serving the interests of ruthless profiteers rather than the society at large; the interest of party bosses and the bureaucrats who run the government factories that churn out tainted products, the factories that pollute the environment, and the mines that compromise labor standards. In these industries, the government is part of the problem rather than part of the solution...

China’s strange and bizarre partnership between the long-time bitter enemies, capitalism, and communism leaves little hope that the country will eventually modernize and upgrade its capitalist system any time soon...

This means that American corporations doing business in China must watch out for more fake outfits, and American consumers with a taste for Chinese products must watch out for more tainted products in their shopping cart.


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Mon, 25 Jul 2011, 12:34am #23
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I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that the reason 50-cent-student gets so defensive and upset over this issue is because he *is* involved in making counterfeit products, and he's trying very hard to make himself believe he's not really a criminal. What the Forbes.com article said about the way Chinese view capitalism-- "as a system of gross and unscrupulous profiteering rather than a system of value and wealth creation"-- fits the attitude betrayed by 50-cent-student's posts like a glove.


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Mon, 25 Jul 2011, 1:18am #24
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SpambotMan,

Interesting what you consider analysis, it says a lot about you:

gross and unscrupulous...freely pollute rivers, lakes, and the air with dangerous chemicals...compromises safety standards for profit...fly-by-night schemes...tainted with corruption, serving the interests of ruthless profiteers...churn out tainted products...pollute the environment...compromise labor standards...government is part of the problem...strange and bizarre partnership between the long-time bitter enemies, capitalism, and communism...little hope...fake outfits...more tainted products...

..................................................................................................................

Another source of yours had this to say:

When approached, none of the staff claimed to work for Apple or that the store was an actual Apple Store. Customers appeared unfazed.

"I prefer to get my Apple products fixed here. It's very troublesome going to the real Apple store in Lujiazui because not only do you have to pay to get repairs, but you have to make an appointment to see the sales specialist," said Xavier, a 30-something expatriate who declined to give his last name.

"The prices are the same as the real store but the service is better here," he added, before whipping out his two iPads to tinker with.

And another:

they did not find any fake Apple products for sale, according to a report by a local newspaper posted on the Kunming city government's website.

And another:

“I just care that what I sell every day are authentic Apple products, and that our customers don’t come back to me to complain about the quality of the products.” ...Photos of the authorized resellers’ stores on Apple’s website show that some of its official resellers also nod to Apple’s trademark, minimalist look and feel, and also feature giant posters of Apple products.

And another:

The [Wall Street] Journal reports that there are thousands of unauthorized resellers of Apple products in China who buy their merchandise from authorized dealers and peddle them at a profit, and that it's not illegal to resell Apple merchandise.

Last edited Mon, 25 Jul 2011, 1:27am by student


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Mon, 25 Jul 2011, 2:50am #25
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student wrote:

Give it up seslaprime.

Everyone knows you were buying and selling counterfeit Apple products (perfect ones) and then switched to lower quality counterfeit products.

As you said; stealing is stealing, no matter how you wrap it.

Ok, so you are a compulsive lier. I have a feeling you are probably a thief as well.

You should give it up. Lying and making up stories to provoke conflict is not the way to make friends. or any way to bring people to your way of thinking. which is hard enough without your garbage.

Everyone knows all about you. We've had to endure your bologna for quite a while.

Most people on this blog understand that "If you Post" it is automatically a bunch of garbage. Dont even need to read it.

You have quickly went from serious "student" to garbage spewing Troll.

But I guess that is how you entertain yourself.

More power to ya...

Last edited Mon, 25 Jul 2011, 7:09pm by seslaprime

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Mon, 25 Jul 2011, 5:35am #26
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Let's wind back the clock and see what seslaprime had to say earlier. It is understandable he is touchy about it as he lost money on a shipment, and I only bring it up as seslaprime claims it didn't occur. sesla can say what he wants now, but his previous statements are pretty clear.

............................................................................................................................

Seslaprime firmly established this already. It's what Sesla told us. He's tried to backtrack in his most recent posts, but he already dug his hole.

seslaprime wrote:

We used to get what they called "Back door Over Stock", These were assembly line over runs, which means when apple order say 200,000 units, the factory will run 250,000 units so they have plenty of replacements and so on, well back in the day, we could knowingly purchase unauthorized apple ipods for a real good deal, we knew they were not under warranty and exactly what they were...

...for Foxconn to sell overstock, it IS against their contract with apple...

What IS illegal is for Chinese companys to manufacture Branded Products without authorization...

I think what is most relevent is How foxconn can sell property they do not own...

When I talked about "Counterfit" Ipods, It was Not the Foxconn Ipods I was talking about. The Foxconn Ipod deals being shut down by apple, is what started the Counterfit ipod and other counterfit issues...

Made over $500,000 USD profit off those Foxconn ipods...

Let's look at a grouping of Seslaprime's inadvertent confessions.

...for Foxconn to sell overstock, it IS against their contract with apple...

What IS illegal is for Chinese companys to manufacture Branded Products without authorization....

We used to get what they called "Back door Over Stock"...when apple order say 200,000 units, the factory will run 250,000 units...

In these confessions: Seslaprime makes it clear Foxconn was running overruns. He makes it clear these overruns were in violation of Foxconn's contract with Apple. He makes it clear it is illegal for companies to manufacture branded goods (e.g. iPod) without authorization. He makes it clear he and his partners were purchasing these illegal overruns.

Thus, Seslaprime has apparently made clear he was knowingly complicit in piracy of iPods and iPod software (theft). It is illegal to import such goods into the USA, and is fraud to sell them in the USA.

Sesla also described how he got his pirated iPods into the US: "If I had a US distributor who would vouch, I could import under their license. this allowed me to purchase at low price and still import without my own License agreement with apple."

He also said he purchased these goods with USD cash in the PRC. In addition to the PRC's piracy laws, this action violated restrictions on foreign currency transactions (a crime which also subjects the entire amount to seizure), and very probably involved tax evasion. Apple does not pay import tax on the components shipped in to be assembled as iPods. This requires all iPods to leave the country. I seem to recall a sale of iPods inside the PRC is illegal as it involves tax evasion by one or more parties (making the goods subject to seizure).

Any iPod sold in the PRC has to first be exported, and then imported back into the PRC with the applicable sales and import tax applied. This is why foreign consumer electronics are more expensive in the PRC than in the USA. This is also why grey market iPods cost more in the PRC than they do legally sold in the USA.

This is yet another indication of Sesla's transaction indeed being illegal or black market.

Link to post

Last edited Mon, 25 Jul 2011, 6:23am by student


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Mon, 25 Jul 2011, 9:27am #27
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So, to summarize my understanding of how a dishonest Chinese manufacturer ripped off Sesla, a phone call between a buyer in a similar situation and the scammer who ripped him off, might have gone like this:

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Buyer: Hey, I had some complaints from my customers that some of the units you sent were fake... were counterfeit. Not real Apple goods.

Scammer: Well, you knew that what you were getting was not covered by an Apple warranty. So that's on you.

Buyer: Now, wait! You told me these were production overruns, that they were genuine Apple products from authorized manufacturers, and the only reason they didn't come with an Apple warranty was because they couldn't be given authorized serial numbers.

Scammer: You knew this was a shady deal. You've got no right to complain.

Buyer: That's just not true! I agreed to buy actual Apple quality merchandise. Not the knock-offs you shipped.

Scammer: Did you get that in writing?

Buyer: Look, you told me it was standard practice when selling overruns to *not* specify in the written contract exactly what was being shipped! You assured me that a handshake deal was standard practice in such a case.

Scammer: Well, let that be a lesson to you. Caveat emptor and all that.

Buyer: I can't believe you'd treat a customer this way. Clearly you don't want repeat business from me. Since what you shipped is not acceptable quality, I'll return the balance of the shipment, and I want a refund.

Scammer: Tough. All sales are final.

Buyer: Now, look...

Scammer: There's no point in talking abut this. I've got other things to do. *click*

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

And again, the fact that 50-cent-student would actually defend this dishonest practice, indicates to me that he must be involved in similar scams.


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