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unipres wrote:

"HALF of Americans don't pay income tax despite crippling government debt" Seems a little silly when you actually say it out loud. I suspect you're never going to hear President Obama say that 49.5% of Americans don't pay their fair share. ;-)


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2105131...

http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/quickfacts/stat_...

BTW, my parents are WELFARE recipients... they both receive social security benefits.

Eh, are your parents on social security? Damn freeloaders.

unipres wrote:

"HALF of Americans don't pay income tax despite crippling government debt" Seems a little silly when you actually say it out loud. I suspect you're never going to hear President Obama say that 49.5% of Americans don't pay their fair share. ;-)


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2105131...

but it makes a lot more sense when you realize that 1/2 of americans make very little money. it's kinda hard to pay taxes AND eat AND pay rent when you barely make enough money to pay the rent and eat. and everyone pays taxes of one sort (sales) or another (property).

supamark wrote:

unipres wrote:

"HALF of Americans don't pay income tax despite crippling government debt" Seems a little silly when you actually say it out loud. I suspect you're never going to hear President Obama say that 49.5% of Americans don't pay their fair share. ;-)


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2105131...

but it makes a lot more sense when you realize that 1/2 of americans make very little money. it's kinda hard to pay taxes AND eat AND pay rent when you barely make enough money to pay the rent and eat. and everyone pays taxes of one sort (sales) or another (property).

supamark, I know you feel poor when sitting next to a rich person but we have the highest standard of living in the world. Show me another country where half of their citizens don't pay the primary form of federal taxation. Even the poor in many European countries are saddled by a super high VAT tax that is embedded into the price of their goods.

Various polls show that between 60% and 75% of people in the US believe that everyone should pay some sort of income tax.

Perhaps the real problem with the income side of our deficit is not that 1% don't pay their fair share but rather 51.5% (1% + 49.5%)don't pay their fair share. What if we taxed everyone the same and set the tax rate based on current spending via a balanced budget ammendment? I suspect that an additional 49.5% of the population would suddenly care a lot more about whether their money was being wasted in the federal budget.

taxing someone 10% on their $20,000 annual income has a much higher impact on that person than does 10% of $200,000 in annual income. This is why taxes get higher as you earn more - you're much more able to absorb it.

this is also why so many people don't pay federal income tax (though they still pay medicaid/care and soc. sec. taxes if they have income, and those are two of the primary drivers of our deficit).

supamark wrote:

taxing someone 10% on their $20,000 annual income has a much higher impact on that person than does 10% of $200,000 in annual income. This is why taxes get higher as you earn more - you're much more able to absorb it.

this is also why so many people don't pay federal income tax (though they still pay medicaid/care and soc. sec. taxes if they have income, and those are two of the primary drivers of our deficit).

At the end of the day, everyone needs some skin in the game so to speak. Otherwise, they will vote for their class and against other classes of people instead of what's best for everyone. It's just too easy to spend other people's money.

STUDY: Tax plans proposed by Romney, Santorum and Gingrich would explode the national debt by trillions http://thkpr.gs/x3FbwE

The Fair Tax with a floor for poverty level is actually a 2 bracket tax. The number of brackets is not the complicating factor of the tax code. It's the other 72,500 pages.

BEWARE of frequent flier miles you receive as a gift!

From the Wall Street Journal:

Drew Jerina, a 68-year-old retiree in Frisco, Texas, said he called Citigroup to find out why he had received two 1099 forms—one for interest earned on his account and another for miscellaneous income. The latter was for 25,000 frequent-flier miles valued at $625, which the bank had given him for opening the account.

Mr. Jerina said that he didn't expect to pay taxes on the miles and was so annoyed by the $175 he now owes that he planned to close his Citigroup account.

IRS values a gift of frequent flier miles based on the full price of an economy class seat with no discounts.

I told you bozos!

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/l...

As U.S. and Israeli officials talk publicly about the prospect of a military strike against Iran's nuclear program, one fact is often overlooked: U.S. intelligence agencies don't believe Iran is actively trying to build an atomic bomb.

A highly classified U.S. intelligence assessment circulated to policymakers early last year largely affirms that view, originally made in 2007. Both reports, known as national intelligence estimates, conclude that Tehran halted efforts to develop and build a nuclear warhead in 2003.

Fibb :) wrote:

I told you bozos!

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/l...

As U.S. and Israeli officials talk publicly about the prospect of a military strike against Iran's nuclear program, one fact is often overlooked: U.S. intelligence agencies don't believe Iran is actively trying to build an atomic bomb.

A highly classified U.S. intelligence assessment circulated to policymakers early last year largely affirms that view, originally made in 2007. Both reports, known as national intelligence estimates, conclude that Tehran halted efforts to develop and build a nuclear warhead in 2003.

I think the west should pull out all the diplomacy stops prior to using force.

However, if Iran claims a nuke, or it is clear they have one... once that line is crossed... I am open to anything short of tactical nukes to eliminate that capability.

Last edited Fri, 24 Feb 2012, 2:22am by wasmaba

Fibb :) wrote:

I told you bozos!

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/l...

As U.S. and Israeli officials talk publicly about the prospect of a military strike against Iran's nuclear program, one fact is often overlooked: U.S. intelligence agencies don't believe Iran is actively trying to build an atomic bomb.

A highly classified U.S. intelligence assessment circulated to policymakers early last year largely affirms that view, originally made in 2007. Both reports, known as national intelligence estimates, conclude that Tehran halted efforts to develop and build a nuclear warhead in 2003.

I suppose that the UN's experience, as reported by the AP, counts for nothing:

VIENNA (AP) – The U.N. nuclear agency says Iran has rapidly ramped up production of higher-grade enriched uranium over the last four months, in a confidential report that feeds concerns about how quickly the Islamic Republic could produce an atomic bomb.

Friday's report by the International Atomic Energy Agency also said Iran had failed to give a convincing explanation about a quantity of missing uranium metal. Diplomats have said the missing amount could be used for experiments used to arm a warhead.

Iran insists it is not interested in nuclear weapons and says all of its activities are meant either to generate energy or to be used for research. But the report expresses "serious concerns regarding possible military dimensions to Iran's nuclear program."

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

VIENNA (AP) — Diplomats say the U.N. nuclear agency is to issue its latest report on Iran on Friday.

The confidential report will detail agency's latest failed attempts to persuade Iran to cooperate in U.N. attempts to probe suspicions that Tehran has worked on components of a nuclear weapons program.

It is being issued just two days after a team from the International Atomic Energy Agency — the U.N. nuclear watchdog — returned from talks in Tehran. It was their second failed attempt within a month to persuade Iran to cooperate.

Well, Obama's on a roll. He now wants to be FDR, cut our troops, the defense budget,spending for new equipment and technology, all just as the Middle East is about to blow like a faulty industrial steam boiler. BRILLIANT, Once again we'll have to play catch up, just like WWII, so it will cost many more lives, and last much longer.
Then there's the fact that his first attempt to erode the personal rights the Constitution guarantees, is to force the Catholic Church to abandon one of it's basic tenets by claiming that he has fixed that gaff, the insurance companies will pay for free birth control methods. ROTFLMAO. Insurance companies do not give anything away moron. How stupid do you think people are? Oh yeah, quite a few are that stupid, they approve of you in the polls.
Then there is the rising gasoline prices, the death knell for Obie's reelection chances. Coincidence? I think not. Obie's real energy policy, inspite of his bravado speeches about natural gas, is to increase regulation, thereby increasing the cost to the consumers. Tut, tut Obie, big oil has already had a taste of your way of doing business. Big oil has been investing billions in the shale gas industry, and big natural gas companies know your ways. Do you think it is a coincidence here that the price of gas is going up at the end of the heating season? Nah. Big oil didn't want that flak, for raising the price of heating oil in the heart of winter. Both big oil and big gas, along with big business, who know what your policies will do to the cost of doing business, have your number, and are going to see to it that as November approaches, your numbers will be in the toilet.
Let's see, the troops that defend the country, organized religion, big oil, big gas and big business. WOW, you have gone beyond the Trifecta, and hit the Quinella of ho to end a political career. Yeah, today you have a 48.1% approval rating, and the Republican nomination is up in the air. But with your power brokers you've pissed off rating at 100%, and the Super Primary day only 11 days away, th Republicans will have that one person that can then concentrate on all of your idiotic strategy blunders, and it will be sha na na na, sha na na na, hey hey, good-bye! So for all of you whiny little Obama boys out there. SHUT UP!!!!!

FACT: About half of the tax cuts in Romney's plan go to the richest 5% http://thkpr.gs/yroEnb
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Arlen Specter: Santorum is too anti-gay to be President http://thkpr.gs/zljqfd
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Obama blasts Gingrich's pledge of $2.50 gas: "It's easy to make phony promises" http://thkpr.gs/x7oQWe

teslafan49 wrote:

Well, Obama's on a roll. He now wants to be FDR, cut our troops, the defense budget,spending for new equipment and technology, all just as the Middle East is about to blow like a faulty industrial steam boiler. BRILLIANT, Once again we'll have to play catch up, just like WWII, so it will cost many more lives, and last much longer.
Then there's the fact that his first attempt to erode the personal rights the Constitution guarantees, is to force the Catholic Church to abandon one of it's basic tenets by claiming that he has fixed that gaff, the insurance companies will pay for free birth control methods. ROTFLMAO. Insurance companies do not give anything away moron. How stupid do you think people are? Oh yeah, quite a few are that stupid, they approve of you in the polls.
Then there is the rising gasoline prices, the death knell for Obie's reelection chances. Coincidence? I think not. Obie's real energy policy, inspite of his bravado speeches about natural gas, is to increase regulation, thereby increasing the cost to the consumers. Tut, tut Obie, big oil has already had a taste of your way of doing business. Big oil has been investing billions in the shale gas industry, and big natural gas companies know your ways. Do you think it is a coincidence here that the price of gas is going up at the end of the heating season? Nah. Big oil didn't want that flak, for raising the price of heating oil in the heart of winter. Both big oil and big gas, along with big business, who know what your policies will do to the cost of doing business, have your number, and are going to see to it that as November approaches, your numbers will be in the toilet.
Let's see, the troops that defend the country, organized religion, big oil, big gas and big business. WOW, you have gone beyond the Trifecta, and hit the Quinella of ho to end a political career. Yeah, today you have a 48.1% approval rating, and the Republican nomination is up in the air. But with your power brokers you've pissed off rating at 100%, and the Super Primary day only 11 days away, th Republicans will have that one person that can then concentrate on all of your idiotic strategy blunders, and it will be sha na na na, sha na na na, hey hey, good-bye! So for all of you whiny little Obama boys out there. SHUT UP!!!!!

lol, where do I even start...

So, you're saying that cutting troops (in the mid-East and elsewhere) is going to cause the (who?) to sneak attack us? nevermind that we'll still have several aircraft carriers, gobs of nukes, and we'll still be spending more than most of the world combined on our military, because we're goin' to be susceptable to... Iran? N. Korea? who the hell would be stupid enough to attack us in a direct military confrontation? only 2 countries, China and Russia, have the military might to keep us from sending the ROFLcopters... so, yeah, we can't afford to spend hundreds of billions of dollars every year on our military for a threat that doesn't exist.

and what crazy ass planet are you living on that you think the president has any effect on the global supply/demand for oil? the reason the prices are goin' up is because worldwide usage is going up quickly while supplies are not. basic supply/demand here.

and the charge that Obama is attacking religion is beyond ignorant. only a moron would actually believe that Obama is intentionally trying to erode our personal religious freedoms. let me explain it to you: the republican party is in danger of being taken over by religious extremeists who are bent on taking away the rights of women along with the rest of us. they want to institute a "christian" state here in the good ol' "keep your gov't out of my religion and I'll keep my relgion out of your gov't" USA.

oh, and since "big business" is the reason we had the near depression in '08, I think trying to reign them in is a good idea - but you neglect the fact that the regulations have to come from our corrupt congress.... so business as usual will continue.

I honestly hope you're just trollin', because if you actually believe the crap you wrote you're astonishingly stupid and a big part of what's wrong with America.

Our oil (WTI) is currently $108 per barrel. Unfortunately, we only produce about 40% of the oil we consume. Refining produces many products, some in excess which we can export. Exporting is good for our trade balance. Much of the other 60% of the oil we consume as imports is Brent which now sells for $123 per barrel. The falling US Dollar (now about $1.35 to the Euro, up from about $1.25 several weeks ago as a result of the Fed declaring no increase in interest rates through 2014) is one of the primary drivers of higher foreign oil prices.

We can reduce gasoline prices here by producing more of our own oil or by converting to Natural Gas, neither of which can be done over night. Of course, Nancy Pelosi pointed out the substantial lag time several years ago as a reason not to "drill baby, drill". And, we did not. In fact we are even trying to get Canada to sell their oil to China instead of us which makes us more dependent on Brent. Our government, in a way, does benefit when we buy oil from countries that simply bank the proceeds in Sovereign Funds. They buy US debt which permits Congress to get their hands on the money to feed their spending habit.

supamark wrote:

and what crazy ass planet are you living on that you think the president has any effect on the global supply/demand for oil? the reason the prices are goin' up is because worldwide usage is going up quickly while supplies are not. basic supply/demand here.

While this is true, perhaps you might consider some broader thinking on the subject? If America was a major producer when the price went up it wouldn't be such a drastic impact to our economy because we would also participate in the economic upside of higher prices. As it is now, high cost oil means rich enemies and a damaged economy for the US.

unipres wrote:

supamark wrote:

and what crazy ass planet are you living on that you think the president has any effect on the global supply/demand for oil? the reason the prices are goin' up is because worldwide usage is going up quickly while supplies are not. basic supply/demand here.

While this is true, perhaps you might consider some broader thinking on the subject? If America was a major producer when the price went up it wouldn't be such a drastic impact to our economy because we would also participate in the economic upside of higher prices. As it is now, high cost oil means rich enemies and a damaged economy for the US.

we don't have the reserves to be a major producer long term. a much better strategy long term is to get off oil. we can start now by increasing efficiency and doing simple things like better home insulation, non-incandescent lighting, not buying SUV's/trucks unless we actually need the hauling capacity, etc. the gains are small individually, but nationally they're sizeable.

supamark wrote:

unipres wrote:

supamark wrote:

and what crazy ass planet are you living on that you think the president has any effect on the global supply/demand for oil? the reason the prices are goin' up is because worldwide usage is going up quickly while supplies are not. basic supply/demand here.

While this is true, perhaps you might consider some broader thinking on the subject? If America was a major producer when the price went up it wouldn't be such a drastic impact to our economy because we would also participate in the economic upside of higher prices. As it is now, high cost oil means rich enemies and a damaged economy for the US.

we don't have the reserves to be a major producer long term. a much better strategy long term is to get off oil. we can start now by increasing efficiency and doing simple things like better home insulation, non-incandescent lighting, not buying SUV's/trucks unless we actually need the hauling capacity, etc. the gains are small individually, but nationally they're sizeable.

Ya don't get off oil by increasing efficiency. You do it by developing technology to economically replace it. By your own logic, handicapping our production won't affect the global price enough to spur a green revolution. Why can't we do both at the same time? Increase our production and economic benefits while investing in technology that may ultimately replace oil.

efficiency reduces the amount of oil used, and as I said it's a good start.

and I'll say again what I've said a bazillion times before, devote 1/2 our defense budget to getting off oil and we can do it a lot quicker and won't need that big military when we can let the mid-east'rs kill each other over which version of Allah they like.... because that's going to happen just like the christians did it a few hundred years ago re: catholic/protestant. without the need for their oil, we can let the folks in the mid-East wipe each other out and it won't affect us (unless you have family/friends there of course).

there's a shit-storm brewing over there like the one in Europe when catholics and protestants were trying to wipe each other out. we can't stop it so I say get out and let 'em kill each other.

The US has about 1,500,000 million barrels (800,000 million barrels estimated recoverable) worth of oil in the form of Oil Shale (not Shale Oil as is being processed in Canada) located in Wyoming, Colorado and Utah on Federal land. Shell Oil has developed a process to convert this material into crude oil in-situ at a cost possibly as low as $35 per barrel by some estimates. This resource could supply the needs of the US until viable alternatives actually exist, and could go a very long way toward eliminating our trade deficit. Not only could we be free of the Middle East, but we could make the entire world free of them and their ability to make oil cost whatever they choose. It is not reasonable to expect a bunch of religious zealots in Iran to make a rational decision about a cost-benefit analysis of blockading the Hormuz Straits, thereby starting yet another war which could quickly spiral out of control as all affected countries pursue their national interests.

See: http://ostseis.anl.gov/guide/oilshale/

This is not to say that we should forget about natural gas. We are shutting down production of NG because we simply have too much of it. It would power trucks and cars far more cheaply than gasoline and diesel. It is used all over the world already. The technology is in place.

supamark, just what I'd expect from you. One thing though, that you evidently couldn't understand, is my point was we have to get off of foreign oil. On that we agree. As far as the President being able to control oil prices, why doesn't he temporarally suspend the Federal tax on gasoline and diesel until we have a better alternative? It hurts the economy, for the price of petroleum to be this high, so he could use that as a stopgap mesure, before unemployment increses and the economy dips again. To quote Bill Clinton, "It's the economy stupid." Further, I agree with you 100% on getting ALL of our troops out of the Middle East , including Afghanistan. But, until we have a viable replacement for the oil we import, it is not feasible, in the least.
As far as NG, several companies are already seeking permits to export LNG, and in about 3 to 4 years, they will have the infrastructure completed. In the mean time the excess NG will be stored, for later export. The new tank technology for CNG will bring the cost of OEM NG cars, and conversions into line, and possibly cheaper than gasoline and diesel fueled vehicles. Honda has the CNG Civic, but with a $3700 premium over the equivalent gasoline engine model. When you consider the equivalent price of CNG is about $1.50, it's a bargain.
For all who think that we can pull the troops immediately, we might be able to if you'd downsize your vehicle, carpool, drive sensibly, and by your kids a bike, instead of a car. Americans all want to whine, but don't want to be inconvenienced.

Last edited Sat, 25 Feb 2012, 12:58pm by teslafan49

"Socialism, in general, has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual cretin could ignore or evade it."

teslafan49 wrote:

As far as the President being able to control oil prices, why doesn't he temporarally suspend the Federal tax on gasoline and diesel until we have a better alternative? It hurts the economy, for the price of petroleum to be this high, so he could use that as a stopgap mesure, before unemployment increses and the economy dips again.

How? He can't raise or lower taxes, only Congress can. The Republican controlled House to be specific, and they'd never pass it because it's more important to them to hurt Obama than it is to help their constituents.

He could tap the strategic reserve, but that could backfire if Iran buggers up world oil supplies.

Cutting the gas tax would be a disaster.

I've been saying for 20 years that the fuel tax should be set to a % of the price per gallon if you are serious about changing the type vehicle and way Americans drive. The higher the price the more tax you pay. Our pocket books are one of the keysto changing our ways.

Of course, suspend the gas tax and watch the road system decay to the point that ATV's will be the only way to get around. Oil prices will drop because no one will be able to travel.

President Evil Predictions

Excessive wrote:

Cutting the gas tax would be a disaster.

I've been saying for 20 years that the fuel tax should be set to a % of the price per gallon if you are serious about changing the type vehicle and way Americans drive. The higher the price the more tax you pay. Our pocket books are one of the keysto changing our ways.

Of course, suspend the gas tax and watch the road system decay to the point that ATV's will be the only way to get around. Oil prices will drop because no one will be able to travel.

Well that would be all fine and dandy to raise the gas tax to inifinity if there were some other viable alternative for most people that didn't require gas. Our economy runs on gas. Trucks need it to transport goods, and people need it to get to work. Until there is a viable alternative to herd the cattle toward, raising the price does nothing but further cluster fuck the economy. According to my calcs, we are only abou 4.5 yrs from total economic collapse. So raise the gas tax, make the economy worse, and maybe we can cut it down to 2.5 yrs left before the lions catch their prey.

Brzeezinski Embarrassed as an American

Ron Paul claimed that gasoline had hit $6/gallon in Florida. Well, it did reach $5.79 inside the Orlando International Airport where people buy gas when returning rental cars. That probably seems like a good deal to Europeans who are used to paying 1.60 Euros/Liter ($8.12/gallon), assuming they can do the arithmetic in their heads.

However, I bought gas at BJ's Thursday for $3.719/gallon and $3.799 was posted at many stations. It is unfortunate that politicians can always find an outlier to use as an anecdote.

So, refuel before you get back to the airport with your rental car in case you didn't already know that.