TheEEStory.com

Robert wrote:

That assumes the only goal a scam can have is money. Enrichment can come in forms other than coin of the realm.

So he'd rather go down as one of the greatest scientific frauds of the early 21st century?

I would be far more willing to believe that he was missing step 2 from the underpants gnomes business plan but didn't know it.

If he were a scammer, wouldn't there be easier and more numerous targets than Kleiner Perkins and Lockheed?

And by the way, it's Bernard Madoff, not Gary.

The U.S. patent is same as the WIPO application with the same data that is 4.5 years old. The EEStor principles have had a 20 or 30 year career starting this type of company on private investor money and failing in the end, winning millions over the years while investors have lost tens of millions. We've posted this all before and no one one has disagreed with these established facts. Their careers have not been "fairly productive" and they aren't just starting this game at a late stage. This was their opportunity for something meaningful, and now I believe they are just looking for the easiest exit strategy, like in their previous companies that failed equally miserably. Since it was a private company and they have not provably lied to investors, the investors have no legal recourse. Zenn is removed from EEStor so investors there have even less recourse.

Please don't feed the trolls.

By the looks of the patent, they must have at least 10 full working EESU's.

Yes, they claimed in 2004 that they had 10 working EESU "components" which do not exhibit voltage saturation. If I am not mistaken, no one has ever reported seeing one of these outside of the US and WIPO patents. You have to wonder why it's been 4.5 years and still no partners nor third party have been allowed to see or test it. No pollution or permit applications have been filed in Texas for a sizable production facility. KP has no comment. LM has no further comment. Zenn continues to flood every available press outlet with the same old questionable EEStor stories, spending more on marketing than on production or research. More than their gross sales. More on marketing than on gross sales. That is a huge red flag. Can you name any other company like that?

EEStor technology consists of 2 non-PhD "researchers" who have published together about 30 patents in their "we seek investors" career, but never brought to market a product. They almost always publish together, never with an "outsider" nor with a company they didn't own. They work in a strip mall and have a long history at failing in start up companies, losing approx $20 million in investor money so far (my estimate based on SEC reports and tidbits from prior investors, not counting the current $10 million or so by EEStor investors).

Zenn is a major-league marketing company, placing an electric motor and lead-acid battery in less than 1 pre-assembled mini-car per day. If you don't believe they are great at marketing, sign up for google alerts and compare the number of microsoft alerts per day and to Zenn alerts.

I come here from time to time only out of fascination. The stock had 15% temporary jump today because of the "New Patent" marketing efforts by Zenn over the weekend had hit the streets, bringing in new unwary investors. I would love to see EEStor break the known laws of physics and save the world and help the less thoughtful here make millions. I would love to hear "i told you so" from all the pumpers who stay here. But I have no hope that will happen. I just want to see how this saga plays out. It's been 5 years since they were supposed to be in production and yet no one has seen a working prototype.

Zawy, I count five places in that post where you have made unsupportable statements, outright errors of fact, or have committed other fallacies-- such as your guilt-by-association criticisms of ZENN Motors. EEStor is *not* ZENN Motors.

You've been around long enough to know better. Why keep trotting out the same errors and fallacies? It's not contributing anything to the discussion.

But more than that, you have a strong case by sticking to the facts. Why undercut your own argument by saying things most forum members know aren't true? When you do that... well, I wouldn't go so far as to label you a "troll", but I can see why the moderator has.

djh01 wrote:

Zenn decided to post the news of the patent on their website. in the Reuters press release, the analyst at Paradigm (the financial house that led multiple rounds of Zenn financing) said that EESTOR is near the point where it can unveil its battery to the public.

Not. A. Battery.

Lensman wrote:

Zawy, I count five places in that post where you have made unsupportable statements, outright errors of fact, or have committed other fallacies-- such as your guilt-by-association criticisms of ZENN Motors. EEStor is *not* ZENN Motors.

What are these errors of fact?

The pumpers here like lensman have always resorted to personal attacks rather than reporting any errors in what I've said. Anyone can look at my posting history and follow previous discussions. People have made minor corrections here and there to my posts, but the overall message I've typed above is not disputed with facts. Anyone can look at Zenn's quarterly report to see they are just a marketing company. I do not see any "guilt by association" comment connecting Zenn and EEStor in my last two posts, but I do indeed think Zenn is not innocent and that it profits from the marketing leverage that the contract with EEStor gives them. Zenn is a public company that can't lie, but it can claim it was merely relying on promises from a private company who can't be held liable. Zenn has spent more on marketing than it has invested in EEStor and all its marketing depends on pointing towards that relatively inexpensive contract with EEStor. If Zenn was serious, they would spend more on research, development, contracts, and production than they do on marketing, but marketing is their primary game. The only bright spot with Zenn is that major insiders have not yet sold a large percentage of their stock.

If they were about to have the monopoly on a fantastic technology at a low price, they would not need any marketing budget.

I think zawy has been pretty accurate in his analysis. EEStor has continued to miss on all deadlines. I just use common sense here. If they had the holy grail, couldn't they sell off like 1 or 2% of the company for millions upon millions and get all the funding they needed in order to finally make this thing to work. You're telling me there aren't major investors out there that would give them a blank check to get this thing working even for a fraction of percentage of ownership. I don't post here anymore, becauase I see it more of an extreme longshot of working now. It's unfortunate, i was really hoping they could pull it off. Here's hopeing for a longshot.

lensman's not a pumper, he just added a section on his FAQs to help people see it may be a fake and in all his posts he always tempers it with (and is happy to admit that) he doesn't know.
I think everyone knows there's a strong case that this isn't the real deal and there could easily be an ulterior motive (though probably not from Zenn because too many people could take them to court for it).
The waiting drives even the staidest of people crazy, but you have to be constructive in your criticism. If you've got nothing new to add that is not already obvious then there's not much point saying. We aren't stupid, we're just hopeful

scareduck wrote:

What are these errors of fact?

For instance, EEStor's office is not in a "strip mall", it's an office park. That one is demonstrably wrong. The claim that "No pollution or permit applications have been filed in Texas for a sizable production facility" seems very unlikely-- what, nowhere in the entire state over the past few years?-- but I admit I can't *prove* it's wrong.

The state pollution authority shows no record of an application under their names or EEStor. Pollution permit applications are necessarily public record as early as possible so that the public can intervene. It looks as long and as wide as a strip mall. An "office park" could be bigger or more professional than it is, but yes I guess "office park" is the correct term. It's not in the cheapest "strip mall" that I've seen, but it doesn't take up more room than a dollar general. They do have pollution control equipment on the top of the building, so at least we know they are doing something.

EVSupporter wrote:

You're telling me there aren't major investors out there that would give them a blank check to get this thing working even for a fraction of percentage of ownership.

I don't know; financial matters are very much *not* my area of expertise. But beyond that, I'm not sure anyone here has enough information to answer that question. I believe B has indicated venture capitalists generally won't make a major investment without being able to exercise some control over the company they're investing in.

If someone really wants us to believe there are VCs out there eager to give EEStor millions in return for only a fraction of 1 percent equity, then my response is simple: "Name one."

zawy wrote:

The state pollution authority shows no record of an application under their names or EEStor. Pollution permit applications are necessarily public record as early as possible so that the public can intervene.

So what you really *meant* to say was "EEStor has not filed any pollution permit application in the state of Texas under their own name."

I think you're deliberately ignoring the obvious here, Zawy. Surely you've heard of "holding companies" and "shell corporations".

P.S.-- You calling me a "pumper" is the first time I've seen anyone try to pin that label on someone who owns no stock in the company!

zawy wrote:

It looks as long and as wide as a strip mall. An "office park" could be bigger or more professional than it is, but yes I guess "office park" is the correct term. It's not in the cheapest "strip mall" that I've seen, but it doesn't take up more room than a dollar general.

The Discovery Business Park isn't just one building, as a strip mall is. Or at least, by *my* definition of a "strip mall"... maybe your definition is different.

EEStor is located in building #1.

There are already like 8-10 major investors in EEStor right? Maybe Weir is already down to 51% ownership and can't sell even 1% more without possibly losing control.

OK, so lensman isn't a pumper, it's a business park instead of strip mall, and I can't prove they haven't secretly started a larger production facility. But is it possible to contradict any of the important points of my post? Zenn is a mostly a marketing company and Nelson and Weir have a 20 or 30 year history of losing investor money in the $20 million range: about $10 million lost on each company they start; about $1 million lost for each patent they get approved.

"Administration" plus marketing expenses were nearly twice as much engineering costs plus gross revenue from sales. Saying Zenn is not a marketing company (founded by an internet marketer) is like saying Microsoft is not a software company. Less than 1 car per day, and they don't even make or assemble it, they just place an electric motor and lead acid battery in it. With what, 20 employees? There are probably 10 of us posting here who could each produce more than Zenn with a 6 month start up time, with our 1 employee self, at a lower cost.

Zenn is almost 10 years old.

Last edited Tue, 23 Dec 2008, 4:04pm by zawy

zawy wrote:

The state pollution authority shows no record of an application under their names or EEStor. Pollution permit applications are necessarily public record as early as possible so that the public can intervene.

At least they are on this list:
http://www.theeestory.com/files/TXNanoCos.pdf
Page 8

That's just a house address.

zawy wrote:

is it possible to contradict any of the important points of my post? Zenn is a mostly a marketing company

Why do you insist on conflating EEStor with ZENN Motors? Are you really unable to see any distinction between the two companies? Are they Siamese twins in your mind?

I have a pretty low opinion of ZM, too. But unlike you, I recognize that the two companies are different and are run by different people.

And despite my low opinion of ZM, Generic is right; ZENN Motors existed before EEStor, and if EEStor fails, ZM will still have EVs to sell. And apparently its domestic market is opening up; it looks like many or perhaps all Canadian provinces will allow the ZENN to be sold there starting in the near future. That's why ZM's stock has been gradually going up despite the overall economic downturn.

Zenn is losing and has always been losing money in the EV world. They have stock value only because of marketing the EEStor connection. EEStor is make or break for Zenn, and a good living so far for everyone at Zenn as long as investors do not realize EEStor is a dead end. Zenn is an "old" company that has no business losing money on such a simple technology and recently getting 10 times its quarterly loses from new investors, diluting the value of the stock of old investors, all thanks to the EEStor connection and unwary investors. The Zenn story depends entirely on EEStor and it has been this way for several years, reaching 10 times its pre-EEStor stock value as the EEStor connection was made by Zenn's intense marketing efforts. Even a look at the "history" on their web site reveals that Zenn itself does not want to disconnected from EEStor in any way, harping on the EEStor claims without being liable if all the information they transmit from EEStor is a lie. The investment in EEStor gives them the ability to pretend to be "victims" of fraud without being legally liable for it. These "victims" at Zenn have been, and will be, getting paid well by investors for at least a decade, despite the losses, and eventually having to close up at a stock value of $0.

You say they will soon be selling more cars, but in case you didn't notice in the quarterly report, Zenn selling more cars only means their losses will be greater even if they stop all marketing and fire 90% of their employees. It costs the same to acquire and assemble the parts for each car as they are grossing for the sale of each car. Currently for every car they sale, they gain enough to break even, but it's costing them an extra 2 times as much as that to keep up their marketing and "administration", $30,000 in losses for each car they assemble. So it costs them the retail price of 3 cars to assemble 1.

Generic, the information is in their last quarterly report.

Last edited Tue, 23 Dec 2008, 8:09pm by zawy

i have a feeling those numbers are going to get much worse with this 1/4 report which is why they are delaying the numbers.......this last 1/4 will reflect the really negative turn in the economy, and i can't see their car sales going up in those conditions. In fact i see their cash burn rate going up considerably. They are probably holding off releasing the results, hoping EEStor will give them some positive results to announce. If not.....TIMMMMMBER!

zawy wrote:

The investment in EEStor gives them the ability to pretend to be "victims" of fraud without being legally liable for it.

Only if EEStor actually *is* committing fraud. As has been pointed out repeatedly by several forum members, if EEStor is running a con game, they're doing a rather poor job of it by discouraging investors. *Real* scam companies, like Ponzi and Steorn and BlackLight Power, take all the money they can get from anyone willing to invest in their scheme.

EEStor doesn't have to be comitting fraud for their product not to work. I don't think Weir was charged with fraud after the patents he was working on for disk storage never went anywhere.

They could stop all those marketing and administrative expenses and just leave Ian and a few others to reap the benefits (multi-year employment in a less than worthless company) of the $15 million they just got from stock sale. That certainly was a close call this year. If it had been delayed a few months it probably would not have gone through. They would have been dead in a few quarters. Oil at $40 doesn't help the EVs. But now they have $15 million in cash to sit tight and do nothing but draw salaries.

I wonder if the "shareholder rights" plan is to prevent a takeover that would spend the cash on something other than the current employee's salaries.

Eestor is not running any kind of con game. this statement is completely ridiculous. I am sure they have made the components as stated. whether they can put it all together and mass produce it is the Only question.

Zenn has very little to do with EEstor, they are only an investor and client. what Zenn does with their business has no impact on EEstor. so there is absolutely no way to gauge EEstor based on anything that happens inside of Zenn.

these are 2 unrelated companies joined Only through a potential future product.

seslaprime wrote:

Eestor is not running any kind of con game. this statement is completely ridiculous. I am sure they have made the components as stated. whether they can put it all together and mass produce it is the Only question.

Zenn has very little to do with EEstor, they are only an investor and client. what Zenn does with their business has no impact on EEstor. so there is absolutely no way to gauge EEstor based on anything that happens inside of Zenn.

these are 2 unrelated companies joined Only through a potential future product.