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If you care about your investment, but are really really lazy, then reading this post is the minimum DD effort you should exert. « Zenn Motor Company « Financial
 
Wed, 01 Feb 2012, 3:31pm #31
energy investor
EESUrient
Registered: May, 2009
Last visit: Wed, 17 Apr 2013
Posts: 1763

Hi Guys,

I am not sure what all the drama is about here.

I have entered into and been a party to many, many agreements where the intent of the parties is spelled out after the use of the phrase, "it is contemplated that". This is usually because contracts and agreements in business are often dynamic things.

In addition, I have never presumed there would be less than two separate agreements between EEStor and ZMC for the simple reason that up to an unknown date where there is a discrete product to sell which meets ZMC's specifications, EEStor's interests are for total secrecy and yet ZMC's interests are to be able to attract funds, with which to honour their obligations under the technology agreement to fund EEStor's development work.

There had to be a break point in this divergence of interest somewhere, and that clearly comes at the time when ZMC have an EESU which meets their spec and they in turn honour their agreement for the final USD500k payment to EEStor.

Until that "break point" ZMC must have sufficient information to tell the market what the general performance parameters of the product are expected to be. Given the delays and the need for more capital, that understanding was revised by Dick in a presentation which was leaked by someone. The leak was arguably neither Dick's nor ZMC's fault but it did ensure that no subsequent allegations of insider trading could be alleged. However, having made the representations that he did, Dick is in theory "a little more on the hook" for what his claims to the Paradigm investors were.

To date I have no knowledge of any possible breach of the NDA by ZMC (albeit that I do not know the NDA's contents) and it seems ZMC have honoured their side of the agreement to date. From the passage of patents and meetings between the parties, I get the impression that EEStor are doing the same. But it is still "work in progress". The ball is in EEStor's court.

At the time of first delivery by EEStor, ZMC will have a "pre-production EESU" which I understand to be an EESU from the EEStor assembly line.

At that time, despite whatever the parties contemplated, a number of things must happen.

1. The performance criteria for the EESUs and cost will then need to be nailed down.
2. The nature of the NDA will change. The reason being that far more in the way of performance and safety information will need to be revealed to third party OEMs, who in turn will need to be bound by confidentiality and secrecy agreements with ZMC to back-to-back whatever they agree with EEStor.
3. The commercial transaction between EEStor and ZMC will then need to nail down the details for supply, terms of trade and support. Further, and performance, royalty, secrecy etc will accompany this.

Zenn would then enter the market to obtain fresh funds with which to trade.

Those who believe that the whole deal would have been nailed down at the outset are commercially naive.

The fact that we were only allowed access to limited information with which to do our pre-investment due diligence, should have been apparent at the outset and the tentative nature of company representations (based on not already having a working EESU or trading with same) is what made the investment in ZMC both speculative and high risk.

I have yet to see anything on theeestory.com site over the past six months that changes my opinion of investment risk. The waxing and waining of share prices is irrelevant.

So my attitude is to wish Kofman, Weir et al, all the best for a successful completion of the production line and look forward to publication of specs.

Should a commercial product never be available, or should it be trumped by product from others, I would lick my wounds and move on.

The fact that the EEStor could change the passage of history makes it more improbable than less. So we should refrain from negative and critical comments pending advice of what the outcome will be.

For ZMC investors, it may just mean we lose our shirts. So we look to Mr Kofman to use his best endeavours to shpherd ZMC through the next critical stages...

kind regards
ei

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Wed, 01 Feb 2012, 3:32pm #32
Eenigma
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Wales51
Registered: Apr, 2009
Last visit: Wed, 03 Apr 2013
Posts: 3124

ee-tom wrote:

To wrap this up, when you make extremely negative comments regarding a supply agreement you have never read it makes me look at all your posts with one eye cocked.

Just saying.

What gets me is the whole idea of the EEStor technology being used for EVs. The most implausible possible application. I don't see it ever happening.

Assuming EEStor meets spec I am completely, adamantly and I'm 100% diametrically opposed to your conclusion. I'm in good company considering Khosla, and a whole host of others agree with my position.

But you must ask, what conceivable commercial advantage could there be for EEstor or Zenn in hiding any positive aspects of the agreement?

Ironically one of the most positive aspects of the 2009 leaked tape was also the most damaging. Should EEStor successfully commercialize Zenn's future customers will know Zenn's internal costs. That is one area of an agreement that mandated the utmost in confidentiality. No way would Zenn intentionally want or allow that aspect of the agreement to be known. Those that actually thought and believed Zenn was behind that leak have the business acumen of a headless fruit fly.


Front row seats with Y_No

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Wed, 01 Feb 2012, 5:13pm #33
eeinterested
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ee-tom, I am with Eenigma, I don't get why an EESU at spec and priced well is not a better than Li-ion. Am I missing something?

Are you saying that if there is a limited amount of product, it should go to higher priced uses? OK, that makes sense until production is robust enough to meet all demand. The agreement with Zenn may call for earlier production than that, and I hope it does.

In the real world, we have very expensive Li-ion in cars, laptops, cellphones and power tools. No doubt the cellphone battery is higher margin per watt than the car, but we see the Li-ion units in both.

You really think GM will be buying Volt batteries that are inferior and more costly than EESUs for some reason? Or that Ian did not understand that EEStor would have other customers, and that his supply needed some assurances.

I don't think he said "I'll fund you now, and you can supply me when it suits you".

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Wed, 01 Feb 2012, 5:45pm #34
cechilders
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Last visit: Mon, 19 Mar 2012
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I am confused. Every estimate DW has made has been wrong. He did not produce in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 despite statements otherwise. Yet we are to believe that the original price will be good forever. I think his original price estimate will be as bad as his time estimates. No matter how much harder the EESU is to produce we are to believe that the EESU fairy will bring cost to original estimates. No matter how much time has past since the original estimate. I will bet everything I own that the original price will never be met. Simple inflation will increase costs even if you pretend there will be some miracle to produce the EESU with the ease it was originally thought to be.

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Wed, 01 Feb 2012, 6:02pm #35
Fibb
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Head_asplode_plus
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Last visit: Fri, 20 Dec 2013
Posts: 3401

cechilders wrote:

I am confused.

dude. we noticed.


The time has come to demonstrate that ZENN is on the right path Romney/Ryan 2012

Dick Weir will not go quietly in the night.... - FMA

My grandkids won't know what it means to put gas or diesel in a car.

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Thu, 02 Feb 2012, 7:47am #36
Technopete
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Technopete
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Last visit: Fri, 18 Jul 2014
Posts: 2385

CEChilders,

Shame you didn't take the trouble to understand the post before commenting.

cechilders wrote:

You have two huge problems. Do you think the best EV market will be mid sized cars that now sell for around 20K-25K? Or Porsche, BMW, Cadillac, etc.? The large and expensive will be the most profitable market for the EV. Zenn does not own that market and the big auto makers will not be in a hurry to pay Zenn a fee for small to mid low profit cars when they can bypass Zenn in the big profit luxury and performance markets. They would be fools to pay Zenn a dime for a very long time if ever.
The point is that Zenn gets value through its EEStor shares on any EESU sales, even if it does not get direct revenue from EESU sales into EV's covered by the Zenn exclusive agreement.

In other words there is no way for EEStor to be wildly successful without dragging Zenn along too because of the 10% stake.

Secondly, the market demand for EV's is not primarily for the luxury end - anyone who has the ego to think the planet owes him the resources to run a huge car will probably not have the conscience to make it an EV. The guys who will buy an EV are going to have a preference for a small or mid-sized EV.

Second problem is the simple minded idea that each year a company divides all profits and send a check to the stock holders. Where is the hell do you get that from. EEStor may pay some dividends but they will not simply send Zenn 10% of the profits every year. How do you suppose Microsoft got a 50 billion dollar bank account? It was not by sending out all profits every year.

There's news for you - retained profit in EEStor increases the Zenn share price. It doesn't matter too much whether EEStor distributes profits or not. What matters is the market valuation of the Zenn share in EEStor.
Even with a successful EESU Zenn will not amount to much for a very long time. By the time the market gets to Zenn the Chinese will have cloned the EESU and Zenn will be left out again. I am afraid Zenn has been suckered at every level. The original idea to put it in their own cars would have given their cars a huge advantage. When the car went away all avenues for Zenn to be big went away. They do not have the truck market. They do not have the two or three wheel market. They do not have the large luxury market. In short Zenn is the low man on the totem pole. They will be last to get anything and what they get will be scraps.

See the response to the first point above for the points which are not just general FUD.

Regards,
Peter

Last edited Thu, 02 Feb 2012, 7:54am by Technopete


Assumptions: 1) E=1/2CV2. (Only dummies assume this). (I am one of these dummies).

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Thu, 02 Feb 2012, 7:56am #37
Technopete
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Technopete
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Last visit: Fri, 18 Jul 2014
Posts: 2385

ee-tom wrote:

(3) The chances of EEstor meeting the Zenn contract pricing etc have always looked minimal.
It doesn't have to hit the Zenn contract pricing. It just has to beat the price available for other EV battery technology.

Regards,
Peter

Last edited Thu, 02 Feb 2012, 8:07am by Technopete


Assumptions: 1) E=1/2CV2. (Only dummies assume this). (I am one of these dummies).

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Thu, 02 Feb 2012, 1:54pm #38
branded
EErudite
Registered: Aug, 2008
Last visit: Wed, 13 Feb 2013
Posts: 84

cechilders wrote:

A real EESU will allow a GREEEN Expedition or Hummer. People will get there monster vehicles with a 100 mpge for guilt free driving. They are the ones who now pay 60K or move for a vehicle. That is where the EESU will go.

Green and Hummer don't belong in the same sentence unless you are a car salesman. Then people would know you are spouting gibberish.

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Thu, 02 Feb 2012, 3:07pm #39
Yukon
EEluminated
Hansons1
Registered: Jul, 2009
Last visit: Mon, 01 Apr 2013
Posts: 644

branded wrote:

cechilders wrote:

A real EESU will allow a GREEEN Expedition or Hummer. People will get there monster vehicles with a 100 mpge for guilt free driving. They are the ones who now pay 60K or move for a vehicle. That is where the EESU will go.

Green and Hummer don't belong in the same sentence unless you are a car salesman. Then people would know you are spouting gibberish.

I'm sorry but I giggle just a little everytime someone says "hummer"


"Electricity is really just organized lightning"
George Carlin

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Fri, 03 Feb 2012, 12:24am #40
Daniel R Plante
EEcclesiastical
Troll_smoke
Registered: Apr, 2009
Last visit: Thu, 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 1185

ricinro wrote:

Perhaps it was not possible to put supply chain agreements into a contract until the realities of the production line were known.
EEStor needs distribution channels but also must balence who gets what and when.


Don't thank me guys, thank Texas Bear. Seems he has a sharp eye and a mind to match. I actually missed that statement in the FY report to tell the truth...

Ric, ei, Eenig, wasm, Tim and several others, very good analysis. You hit the nail on the head I think. Yes, you couldn't stipulate specific kWh/month supply agreements for 2012 back in 2004, they were still doing production R&D for Pete's sake. Non sequiteur. But, you quite obviously could stipulate a percentage of total production as I've mentioned before on this blog, and even THAT could be qualified.... does everybody understand this?

Let me make it simple: in spite of what y'all might have superficially concluded from my original post, I am unperturbed by this wording in the Zenn FY 2011 docs. Truth be told, I have not stopped accumulating ZNN when I can, to the present day.

I started this thread because quite frankly I freak out a bit whenever I see peeps that I like going off half-cocked on isolated incremental info.... and some of them have a significant stake in this. I find that the concept of informed consent is VERY important to me, yet most of you don't seem to want to truly inform yourselves. You gotta spend a little more effort putting things in their overall context to get a better picture. Especially when 99% of your due diligence is spoon fed to you by other awesome peeps on this blog.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you are as financially and emotionally invested in this story as you seem to present, then you might want to spend a little more time and mental effort thinking through the obvious bits of this story. I mean actually thinking, y'know?

Obvious bit #1: The primary reason you are here is because of Ian.

Obvious bit #2: Ian has already stated publicly that he:

1) has seen it work (as Mort Topfer, former head of RCA Labs, also stated),

2) hired independent SMEs to evaluate the tech prior to investing, and

3) he was in the cat-bird seat when he negotiated the contracts with Dick by way of what was obviously corporate legal counsel.

Does all this condense into a simple, concise and certain picture? Of course not. You don't get off nearly that easily. But conviction is the bell-weather of certainty, yes? :) What is your conviction?

You have to use your head - what does all this tell you? You have to make up your own mind. I might cringe when you go off on a disconnected or superficial tangent and freak out that you (and possibly your family) have a great deal on the line, but in the final analysis I am not your keeper.

Y'all have to be your own best friend, but mostly what I see is you being your own worst enemy. This might sound kinda arrogant and superior, but I honestly don't mean it to be. If I was a total self indulgent prick I wouldn't bother to write this post or think about you for a microsecond. I'd spend my time and resources watching movies, eating rib eye, or hiring an escort instead. Much more entertaining :)

Last edited Fri, 03 Feb 2012, 12:38am by Daniel R Plante


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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Fri, 03 Feb 2012, 12:38am #41
Fibb
EExhilarating
Head_asplode_plus
Registered: Jul, 2009
Last visit: Fri, 20 Dec 2013
Posts: 3401

The time for DD is over. I just want this story to end. Damn hell ass end!


The time has come to demonstrate that ZENN is on the right path Romney/Ryan 2012

Dick Weir will not go quietly in the night.... - FMA

My grandkids won't know what it means to put gas or diesel in a car.

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Fri, 03 Feb 2012, 7:11am #42
AMN
EErudite
Registered: Dec, 2009
Last visit: Sat, 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 58

Thank you Daniel.

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Fri, 03 Feb 2012, 8:01am #43
wasmaba
Administrator
Religion_peaceful
Registered: Apr, 2009
Last visit: Sun, 20 Jul 2014
Posts: 2729

Yukon wrote:

branded wrote:

cechilders wrote:

A real EESU will allow a GREEEN Expedition or Hummer. People will get there monster vehicles with a 100 mpge for guilt free driving. They are the ones who now pay 60K or move for a vehicle. That is where the EESU will go.

Green and Hummer don't belong in the same sentence unless you are a car salesman. Then people would know you are spouting gibberish.

I'm sorry but I giggle just a little everytime someone says "hummer"

Thanks. I almost just coughed up a lung. :-)


EEStor’s legitimacy is a job for Carl Sagan and Sherlock Holmes. Times are a changing.
http://theeestory.com/posts/47263 TY B,TV,Nekote. http://theeestory.com/topics/1949

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Fri, 03 Feb 2012, 8:11am #44
wasmaba
Administrator
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Registered: Apr, 2009
Last visit: Sun, 20 Jul 2014
Posts: 2729

Daniel R Plante wrote:

ricinro wrote:

Perhaps it was not possible to put supply chain agreements into a contract until the realities of the production line were known.
EEStor needs distribution channels but also must balence who gets what and when.


Don't thank me guys, thank Texas Bear. Seems he has a sharp eye and a mind to match. I actually missed that statement in the FY report to tell the truth...

Ric, ei, Eenig, wasm, Tim and several others, very good analysis. You hit the nail on the head I think. Yes, you couldn't stipulate specific kWh/month supply agreements for 2012 back in 2004, they were still doing production R&D for Pete's sake. Non sequiteur. But, you quite obviously could stipulate a percentage of total production as I've mentioned before on this blog, and even THAT could be qualified.... does everybody understand this?

Let me make it simple: in spite of what y'all might have superficially concluded from my original post, I am unperturbed by this wording in the Zenn FY 2011 docs. Truth be told, I have not stopped accumulating ZNN when I can, to the present day.

I started this thread because quite frankly I freak out a bit whenever I see peeps that I like going off half-cocked on isolated incremental info.... and some of them have a significant stake in this. I find that the concept of informed consent is VERY important to me, yet most of you don't seem to want to truly inform yourselves. You gotta spend a little more effort putting things in their overall context to get a better picture. Especially when 99% of your due diligence is spoon fed to you by other awesome peeps on this blog.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you are as financially and emotionally invested in this story as you seem to present, then you might want to spend a little more time and mental effort thinking through the obvious bits of this story. I mean actually thinking, y'know?

Obvious bit #1: The primary reason you are here is because of Ian.

Obvious bit #2: Ian has already stated publicly that he:

1) has seen it work (as Mort Topfer, former head of RCA Labs, also stated),

2) hired independent SMEs to evaluate the tech prior to investing, and

3) he was in the cat-bird seat when he negotiated the contracts with Dick by way of what was obviously corporate legal counsel.

Does all this condense into a simple, concise and certain picture? Of course not. You don't get off nearly that easily. But conviction is the bell-weather of certainty, yes? :) What is your conviction?

You have to use your head - what does all this tell you? You have to make up your own mind. I might cringe when you go off on a disconnected or superficial tangent and freak out that you (and possibly your family) have a great deal on the line, but in the final analysis I am not your keeper.

Y'all have to be your own best friend, but mostly what I see is you being your own worst enemy. This might sound kinda arrogant and superior, but I honestly don't mean it to be. If I was a total self indulgent prick I wouldn't bother to write this post or think about you for a microsecond. I'd spend my time and resources watching movies, eating rib eye, or hiring an escort instead. Much more entertaining :)

Damn Dan.
You just went all DRP on us.
Nice. :-)


EEStor’s legitimacy is a job for Carl Sagan and Sherlock Holmes. Times are a changing.
http://theeestory.com/posts/47263 TY B,TV,Nekote. http://theeestory.com/topics/1949

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Sat, 04 Feb 2012, 2:06am #45
Daniel R Plante
EEcclesiastical
Troll_smoke
Registered: Apr, 2009
Last visit: Thu, 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 1185

Fibb :| wrote:

The time for DD is over. I just want this story to end. Damn hell ass end!


Uh oh, angst-man is back. Sweet! :)


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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Sat, 04 Feb 2012, 2:08am #46
Daniel R Plante
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Last visit: Thu, 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 1185

AMN wrote:

Thank you Daniel.


My pleasure AMN. It's been a while, how are you? hanging on by a thread like most of us? :)


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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Sat, 04 Feb 2012, 2:16am #47
Daniel R Plante
EEcclesiastical
Troll_smoke
Registered: Apr, 2009
Last visit: Thu, 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 1185

wasmaba wrote:

Damn Dan.
You just went all DRP on us.
Nice. :-)


Yeah, I DRP'd. I lectured and whatnot. It's not exactly attractive. You're gonna chew me out again on back channel aren't you?

Ok, I'm an idiot. Do your worst :)


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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Sat, 04 Feb 2012, 2:40pm #48
ricinro
EExhilarating
Rich-ricinro
Registered: Aug, 2008
Last visit: Sun, 21 Apr 2013
Posts: 3302

God, give us grace to accept with serenity
the things that cannot be changed,
Courage to change the things
which should be changed,
and the Wisdom to distinguish
the one from the other.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace,
Taking, as Jesus did,
This sinful world as it is,
Not as I would have it,
Trusting that You will make all things right,
If I surrender to Your will,
So that I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen.

oh...

BTW while I got you online God and if you're not too busy smite-ing and other God type activities, a bit of NNN about Zenn and EEStor would be nice.


Thanks BTV for the blog

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Sun, 05 Feb 2012, 2:18pm #49
e'er
EESUrient
Woodford_reduced
Registered: Jan, 2009
Last visit: Tue, 12 Feb 2013
Posts: 1665

Technopete wrote:

ee-tom wrote:

(3) The chances of EEstor meeting the Zenn contract pricing etc have always looked minimal.
It doesn't have to hit the Zenn contract pricing. It just has to beat the price available for other EV battery technology.

Regards,
Peter

If it lasts longer or charges quicker, then it doesn't even have to do that.


You tell me.

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Sun, 05 Feb 2012, 5:56pm #50
energy investor
EESUrient
Registered: May, 2009
Last visit: Wed, 17 Apr 2013
Posts: 1763

Hi DRP,

Great to see you are still keeping the dream alive :-)

kind regards
ei

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Tue, 07 Feb 2012, 12:16am #51
Daniel R Plante
EEcclesiastical
Troll_smoke
Registered: Apr, 2009
Last visit: Thu, 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 1185


Hi ei! Been a while. Yep, I value dreams more than almost everything else. They're fun and hugely affirming. For me though, they gotta be realistic dreams. I think that's why I've sucked at writing fiction. It seems my brain filters out impractical or improbable dreams, so I have focused on this particular dream. Anyway, I'm still enjoying myself with it, and I'm still just waiting like everybody else :)


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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Tue, 07 Feb 2012, 12:30am #52
Daniel R Plante
EEcclesiastical
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Last visit: Thu, 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 1185

e'er wrote:

Technopete wrote:

ee-tom wrote:

(3) The chances of EEstor meeting the Zenn contract pricing etc have always looked minimal.
It doesn't have to hit the Zenn contract pricing. It just has to beat the price available for other EV battery technology.

Regards,
Peter

If it lasts longer or charges quicker, then it doesn't even have to do that.



Yep. FBC & TCO (includes leasing approaches).


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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Tue, 07 Feb 2012, 8:23am #53
DaveM
EEuphoric
Img_5775
Registered: Jul, 2009
Last visit: Fri, 18 Jul 2014
Posts: 787

e'er wrote:

Technopete wrote:

ee-tom wrote:

(3) The chances of EEstor meeting the Zenn contract pricing etc have always looked minimal.
It doesn't have to hit the Zenn contract pricing. It just has to beat the price available for other EV battery technology.

Regards,
Peter

If it lasts longer or charges quicker, then it doesn't even have to do that.

This is a good point, even the competition out there (Fluidic Energy, "advanced Li-Ion") has to be much cheaper to compete with a fast recharge time and 100,000+ recharge cycles.


"Most people don't believe something can happen until it already has." Max Brooks, World War Z.

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