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yet another proposal for high energy density capacitors... « Scientific Information « Technology
 
Wed, 15 Feb 2012, 5:04pm #1
sydd
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http://gtp.autm.net/technology/view/5012
http://www.nps.edu/Academics/Centers/CMR/Research/NewMaterial.html

Technology Description

In some sense, “dielectric constant” is a measure of how well an insulation material reduces the electric field within itself. Hence, an insulation material with the highest possible “field exclusion” would be the best dielectric. On this basis, an entirely new class of dielectrics has recently been developed. The new dielectric material consists of metal core particles with a coat of ceramic. Each component of this multi-material dielectric plays an important role and the combined properties of the three materials: matrix (e.g. Barium titinate) outer coat (e.g. alumina) and core (e.g. aluminum) are dramatically better than anything found in a single material. In particular, the metal component can have nearly infinite field exclusion which is far better than even the best materials currently employed, such as barium titanate (BaTiO3). The ceramic coat on the proposed bi-layer nanoscale metal particles would provide electric insulation allowing high packing density of the metal core particles without the short-circuit phenomenon heretofore always observed above 27% loading due to percolation. Literature data shows net capacitance increases nearly exponentially with metal loading. Hence the best enhancement observed to date, 8X (~25% loading) extrapolates to 100 X at 60 % loading. Only with the technology developed herein is the 60% loading limit possible.

Advantages/Applications

Dramatic improvement in energy density, with a goal of a factor 100 X over existing electrostatic capacitors. Could lead to replacement of batteries with capacitors in many applications.
No out of phase impedance even at very high frequency.
Applicable to high frequency electronics
Extreme flexibility-almost any metal can be used in conjunction with almost any ceramic

cheers sydd


Chat from 5 pm Mon, 9 Jan 2012:
"I WANT MY DAMN LONG DIPOLE, FOR CRIMINEY SAKES ! :)" - nekote
"But there are no farking long or short dipoles to speak of. Just some residual short dipoles relative to the plate" - Prof Bombay

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Thu, 16 Feb 2012, 12:57am #2
DGDanforth
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From the second article:

Remarkable initial results justify the proposed effort. We documented, confirmed by independent lab, the existence of a new family of dielectric materials, with measured dielectric constants between 10 and 10000 times those reported for barium titanate, the standard high performance material generally employed in electrostatic capacitors


EEStor Hopeful.

"Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler" A. Einstein
"Alas, simplicity is rarely simple" curiositEE

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Thu, 16 Feb 2012, 7:32am #3
tvillars
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The idea of coated particles does seems to be catching on.


contact: tvillars -at- gmail dot com

Past Predictions 1 - 4, 6

Current Predictions

5) component to have specific energy between 550 to 650 Wh/kg

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Thu, 16 Feb 2012, 7:34am #4
Y_Po
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Dramatic improvement in energy density, with a goal of a factor 100 X over existing electrostatic capacitors. Could lead to replacement of batteries with capacitors in many applications.

These people are either incredibly ignorant/stupid or complete frauds.


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Fri, 17 Feb 2012, 9:31am #5
hoarybat
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Some EEstor ingredients for this cake. Independent lab? More of the same. Someday in our lifetime?


Lensman Scale: 2 taking too long based on earlier promise/claims.

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Fri, 17 Feb 2012, 2:56pm #6
eestorblog
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This thread has an Intel connection. I wonder who at Intel knows this researcher.

http://nanohub.org/members/30343

her background is in govt grants. this is military stuff


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Fri, 17 Feb 2012, 6:28pm #7
Technopete
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DGDanforth wrote:

From the second article:

Remarkable initial results justify the proposed effort. We documented, confirmed by independent lab, the existence of a new family of dielectric materials, with measured dielectric constants between 10 and 10000 times those reported for barium titanate, the standard high performance material generally employed in electrostatic capacitors
If the breakdown field in a capacitor were constant irrespective of the thickness then there's no obvious reason why the construction would increase the energy density over and above raw ceramic. In fact, because the metal does not store any energy (it can't, because the internal field must be zero), then the ED should be reduced because there is less dielectric storing energy.

However, thinner dielectric layers tend to have higher breakdown fields, but lower total breakdown voltage (=field x thickness), and the construction suggested is one way of achieving a controlled thickness. This can potentially increase the capacitance and breakdown field, but at the expense of having less active dielectric material.

So there may well be an improvement in ED. But this is not saying it would achieve an ED comparable to that claimed in the EEStor patent.

Regards,
Peter

Last edited Fri, 17 Feb 2012, 6:38pm by Technopete


Assumptions: 1) E=1/2CV2. (Only dummies assume this). (I am one of these dummies).

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Sat, 18 Feb 2012, 5:04pm #8
sydd
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and another one...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/marc.201100849/full

Oligoaniline-Containing Supramolecular Block Copolymer Nanodielectric Materials

Abstract

We report a new generation of nanodielectric energy storage materials based on supramolecular block copolymers. In our approach, highly polarizable, conducting nanodomains are embedded within an insulating matrix through block copolymer microphase separation. An applied electric field leads to electronic polarization of the conducting domains. The high interfacial area of microphase-separated domains amplifies the polarization, leading to high dielectric permittivity. Specifically, reversible addition fragmentation transfer (RAFT) polymerization was used to prepare block copolymers with poly(methyl acrylate) (PMA) as the insulating segment and a strongly acidic dopant moiety, poly-(2-acrylamido-2-methyl-1-propanesulfonic acid) (PAMPSA), as the basis for the conducting segment. The PAMPSA block was complexed with an oligoaniline trimer to form a dopant-conjugated moiety complex that is electronically conductive after oxidation. For the undoped neat block copolymers, the increase of the PMA block length leads to a transition in dielectric properties from ionic conductor to dielectric capacitor with polarization resulting from migration of protons within the isolated PAMPSA domains. The oligoaniline-doped copolymers show remarkably different dielectric properties. At frequencies above 200 kHz, they exhibit characteristics of dielectric capacitors with much higher permittivity and lower dielectric loss than the corresponding undoped copolymers.

Graphical Abstract

http://www.theeestory.com/files/ncontent.jpg


Chat from 5 pm Mon, 9 Jan 2012:
"I WANT MY DAMN LONG DIPOLE, FOR CRIMINEY SAKES ! :)" - nekote
"But there are no farking long or short dipoles to speak of. Just some residual short dipoles relative to the plate" - Prof Bombay

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Sat, 18 Feb 2012, 11:18pm #9
Daniel R Plante
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Guys, the apparent non-linear relation between layer thickness and breakdown strength is simply a statistical artifact related to material defect density. If you had a very thick, absolutely atomically perfect crystal layer (good luck with that), then the empirical breakdown difference measured between thick and thin layers would vanish.

Sydd, thanks for the links lately, very interesting :)


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012, 12:17am #10
Y_Po
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Daniel R Plante wrote:


then the empirical breakdown difference measured between thick and thin layers would vanish.

Idiot, no, they would not. Breakdown is caused by avalanche ionization of dielectric. Nano-thin dielectrics don't have avalanche ionization because there is not enough voltage in them.
Instead nano-thin capacitors start leaking current at few volts due to quantum tunneling.
And record achieved for nano-thin-film is 3000 Volt/um.


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012, 12:27am #11
Daniel R Plante
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Y_Po wrote:

Daniel R Plante wrote:


then the empirical breakdown difference measured between thick and thin layers would vanish.

Idiot, no, they would not. Breakdown is caused by avalanche ionization of dielectric. Nano-thin dielectrics don't have avalanche ionization because there is not enough voltage in them.
Instead nano-thin capacitors start leaking current at few volts due to quantum tunneling.
And record achieved for nano-thin-film is 3000 Volt/um.



Nope. Regardless of thickness, tunneling current, etc - if "breakdown" occurs, it would have had to start at some point of nucleation. What is the nucleation point?


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012, 1:03am #12
Y_Po
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Daniel R Plante wrote:

Y_Po wrote:

Daniel R Plante wrote:


then the empirical breakdown difference measured between thick and thin layers would vanish.

Idiot, no, they would not. Breakdown is caused by avalanche ionization of dielectric. Nano-thin dielectrics don't have avalanche ionization because there is not enough voltage in them.
Instead nano-thin capacitors start leaking current at few volts due to quantum tunneling.
And record achieved for nano-thin-film is 3000 Volt/um.



Nope. Regardless of thickness, tunneling current, etc - if "breakdown" occurs, it would have had to start at some point of nucleation. What is the nucleation point?

Stupid Idiot, tunneling does not need point of nucleation. It happens in perfectly perfect material. And if tunneling is not enough for starting breakdown (field is too low for example) then cosmic radiation would certainly start it. Then thermal ionization is too can create a pair.
You stupid idiot.


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012, 1:32am #13
Daniel R Plante
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Y_Po wrote:

Daniel R Plante wrote:

Y_Po wrote:

Daniel R Plante wrote:


then the empirical breakdown difference measured between thick and thin layers would vanish.

Idiot, no, they would not. Breakdown is caused by avalanche ionization of dielectric. Nano-thin dielectrics don't have avalanche ionization because there is not enough voltage in them.
Instead nano-thin capacitors start leaking current at few volts due to quantum tunneling.
And record achieved for nano-thin-film is 3000 Volt/um.



Nope. Regardless of thickness, tunneling current, etc - if "breakdown" occurs, it would have had to start at some point of nucleation. What is the nucleation point?

Stupid Idiot, tunneling does not need point of nucleation. It happens in perfectly perfect material. And if tunneling is not enough for starting breakdown (field is too low for example) then cosmic radiation would certainly start it. Then thermal ionization is too can create a pair.
You stupid idiot.

No. Tunneling current is, by first approximation, a steady state phenomenon. "Breakdown" is not. Breakdown is definitively avalanching (non steady state - to first approximation) phenomenon. Even so, a first-approximation "steady state" situation also still requires a nucleation point to translate to a non-linear (breakdown) state.

What is the nature of the nucleation? It must start somewhere, and for some valid reason.


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012, 1:36am #14
Y_Po
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Cretin, thin-film cannot have avalanche because there is not enough energy to ionize.


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012, 1:52am #15
Daniel R Plante
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Y_Po wrote:

Cretin, thin-film cannot have avalanche because there is not enough energy to ionize.


Dude, avalanche is avalanche. "Thinness" doesn't matter. If mass and acceleration causes a breach where current between conductors/plates can sustain and destroy the lattice, well that is the bottom line. Understand?


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012, 1:55am #16
Y_Po
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DRP, you ARE stupid


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012, 1:57am #17
Daniel R Plante
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Y_Po wrote:

DRP, you ARE stupid


You can do better than that, c'mon. The potential between the plates is either held off or it's not. Duh. Doesn't matter what's in between, and it doesn't matter what you call the reason for failure. Current will destroy.



daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012, 2:14am #18
Y_Po
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you are stupid


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012, 2:16am #19
Daniel R Plante
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But when push comes to shove, at a molecular level, even at an atto-second level, there WILL be at first cause. Understand? Tell me about that. I know you can. And I know you realize I can call bullshit on it if you post crap. Later buddy!


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012, 2:20am #20
Y_Po
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You are still stupid


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012, 2:40am #21
Daniel R Plante
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Y_Po wrote:

You are still stupid


Well, better than f'tard, huh?


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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Sun, 19 Feb 2012, 6:33am #22
Tec
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I think y_po is pointing out that quantum tunnelling is different from breakdown. It is equally likely over the whole area and doesn't need 'nucleation'.

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Mon, 20 Feb 2012, 3:28pm #23
sydd
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Jonathan Phillips: A hell of a guy

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jonathan-phillips/18/42b/a57

Jonathan Phillips
National Lab Professor at University of New Mexico
Scientist at Los Alamos National Laboratory
Former full professor at Penn State University

Materials science, nano materials, plasma generated materials, catalysis, carbon, battery and capacitor materials, plasma physics, atomic physics, process engineering, research, writing,


Chat from 5 pm Mon, 9 Jan 2012:
"I WANT MY DAMN LONG DIPOLE, FOR CRIMINEY SAKES ! :)" - nekote
"But there are no farking long or short dipoles to speak of. Just some residual short dipoles relative to the plate" - Prof Bombay

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Mon, 20 Feb 2012, 4:13pm #24
sydd
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Review: engineering particles using the
aerosol-through-plasma method

http://permalink.lanl.gov/object/tr?what=info:lanl-repo/lareport/LA-UR-09-00337


Chat from 5 pm Mon, 9 Jan 2012:
"I WANT MY DAMN LONG DIPOLE, FOR CRIMINEY SAKES ! :)" - nekote
"But there are no farking long or short dipoles to speak of. Just some residual short dipoles relative to the plate" - Prof Bombay

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Mon, 20 Feb 2012, 4:34pm #25
sydd
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Patent: Metal oxide nanoparticles and process for producing the same

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=20070075052


Chat from 5 pm Mon, 9 Jan 2012:
"I WANT MY DAMN LONG DIPOLE, FOR CRIMINEY SAKES ! :)" - nekote
"But there are no farking long or short dipoles to speak of. Just some residual short dipoles relative to the plate" - Prof Bombay

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Mon, 20 Feb 2012, 4:49pm #26
sydd
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Posts: 211

RESEARCH AT NPS JANUARY 2012

ENERGY SEED PROPOSAL COMPETITiON

As reported in the December edition of Research News, the
Research Board has endorsed a proposal to use a portion of the Dean of Research initiative funding to hold a competition for a limited number of awards for “seed funding” or “feasibility studies” in the area of energy. The purpose of the awards will be to develop, or further advance, new concepts to a level of maturity such that they could be submitted as highly-competitive proposals to sponsors for external funding. There were sixteen submissions from across campus, of which seven were elected this year. The following proposals received FY12 funding:

Novel Metal-Oxide Aerogel/Graphitic Hybrids for
Supercapacitive Energy Storage, Associate Professor
Claudia Luhrs, Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering

Multi-Material Dielectics: Super High Dielectric Constant Materials, Research Professor Jonathan Phillips, Physics

http://www.nps.edu/research/newsletters/January12news.pdf


Chat from 5 pm Mon, 9 Jan 2012:
"I WANT MY DAMN LONG DIPOLE, FOR CRIMINEY SAKES ! :)" - nekote
"But there are no farking long or short dipoles to speak of. Just some residual short dipoles relative to the plate" - Prof Bombay

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Tue, 21 Feb 2012, 3:05am #27
Daniel R Plante
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Tec wrote:

I think y_po is pointing out that quantum tunnelling is different from breakdown. It is equally likely over the whole area and doesn't need 'nucleation'.


Nah, breakdown is breakdown, and it has to start some where (some specific, singular bond), and within the context of a field applied to an insulator, thermal contributions to Fermi energy level wrt tunneling will never be the final cause, just a helper.

Thermal energy in the lattice doesn't matter. The straw that breaks the camel's back under applied field situations will always be the propagated effects of kinetic conduction band electron energy.

He knows this. He's just being a Dick :)


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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Tue, 21 Feb 2012, 3:15am #28
Daniel R Plante
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Sorry sydd, I guess I shit all over your thread & references again. My bad.


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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Tue, 21 Feb 2012, 3:17am #29
Daniel R Plante
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I'll check out your last 4 links tomorrow? Peace and love? Don't hit me, I mean well! (and I bruise easy) :)


daniel_r_plante@hotmail.com
Programmer, Applied Science Technologist (AScT). Automated Test Engineering (ATE), shop 153, CFB Esquimalt, Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria, BC, Canada V9A 7N2. My direct line: (250) 363-2061. Home: (250) 382-0068

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