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Thu, 01 Mar 2012, 6:42am #31
Tec
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I don't see a lot of difference between 'big oil' and 'big electricity' or 'big battery manufacturer' or 'big motor manufacturer' or 'big silicon chip manufacturer' There are all sorts of things you rely on suppliers for so your illusion of independence because one of these is avoidable is indeed hard to understand.

Nor do I understand why you don't realise that if oil is synthesised by other methods, then the political dimension is reduced and you really don't need to worry - ever - because it is an infinitely renewable resource as long as the energy to make it is available.

But then I don't understand the apparent fear americans have of relying on 'forn oil' anyway particularly when their biggest supplier of it is that hothouse of political and religious fundamentalism, that 'rogue state' run by mad mullahs, that fountain of radical terrorism ... er... Canada!

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Thu, 01 Mar 2012, 10:44am #32
student
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antiguajohn wrote:

You did post the following;

"For instance, the article claims Volts are safe to drive and cites 250k vehicle fires annually as a reason to not worry about the Volt catching on fire."

I am fairly confident this would count as mentioning a Volt catching fire.

Yes, as I said, I made no mention of any case where the Volt caught on fire. The quote is clearly discussing future fires. Further reading of the quoted post would tend to make it clear I was generally commenting on EVs.


Bill Nye says limits for a dielectric are simply what have been demonstrated to date.


Jack LaLanne

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Thu, 01 Mar 2012, 11:05am #33
greg woulf
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Well said Sesla, I agree with that.

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Thu, 01 Mar 2012, 1:15pm #34
hoarybat
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RmW wrote:

student wrote:

What it doesn't mention, is the cited government statistics show fuel tanks and lines are eight times less likely to cause a fire than electrical arcing in an ICEV. Additionally, those same statistics show the insulation around electrical wiring is the most likely item to be initially ignited in all highway vehicle fires. As an aside, electrical failure, such as short circuiting, is the largest category of known contributing factors.

Yes, Student, what you wrote above perfectly describes what happens to almost every ICE or Hybrid over time. And it drives me crazy when the spark plug wires go. You too? Especially in damp, rainy or snowy weather. Pisses me off.

I've actually had an engine fire due to this (~25 years ago).

I guess you just accidentally mis-stated when you said "Considering this, one may have good cause to be skeptical of the flimsy pro-EV arguments presented.".

Clueless....

Ya I hear ya for I can't get a sticker on my wife's vehicle until I find the EVAP leak on one of many hoses and areas. Mechanics use a smoke machine to pinpoint them quickly but I guess I will get a cigar from my buddy and blow smoke in the system via my mouth and have my son look for the smoke coming out of the hoses and areas. Worked like a charm the last time I had this issue. All this shit to go through to get a sticker to pass inspection on an ICE that is not that old. An EV wouldn't have this issue.


Lensman Scale: 2 taking too long based on earlier promise/claims.

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Thu, 01 Mar 2012, 3:06pm #35
seslaprime
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Tec wrote:

I don't see a lot of difference between 'big oil' and 'big electricity' or 'big battery manufacturer' or 'big motor manufacturer' or 'big silicon chip manufacturer' There are all sorts of things you rely on suppliers for so your illusion of independence because one of these is avoidable is indeed hard to understand.

Nor do I understand why you don't realise that if oil is synthesised by other methods, then the political dimension is reduced and you really don't need to worry - ever - because it is an infinitely renewable resource as long as the energy to make it is available.

But then I don't understand the apparent fear americans have of relying on 'forn oil' anyway particularly when their biggest supplier of it is that hothouse of political and religious fundamentalism, that 'rogue state' run by mad mullahs, that fountain of radical terrorism ... er... Canada!

Yeah, this is the problem with our differing views for sure. you think it is OK for industry to sling you around by your money. after all, everyone needs to make a profit correct? I think it is absolute theft to move energy up and down in 100%-500% chunks. effectively making decisions for me how far it costs to drive my vehicle. we go from a $20 fill up to $80 fill up back to $60, $75 and so on. it is frustrating and Most people agree.

you think that if transportation is powered by electricity that the cartel will just control that and do the same thing, but we all know this is a fallacy because Now, with Electricity driving my economics, I can harvest my own. cant do that with Oil.

So effectively closing off the Cartels fluctuation and systematic extraction of my personal finances.

this is too attractive for the masses to dismiss. in fact, this idea alone is the driving force behind renewable energies and Products that utilize those energies.

there is no stopping now.

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Thu, 01 Mar 2012, 3:15pm #36
TimBitts649
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Nice going, Antigua. Good article.

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Thu, 01 Mar 2012, 4:36pm #37
Lensman
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Tec wrote:

I don't see a lot of difference...

Nor do I understand why you...

But then I don't understand...

In your case, Tec, I get the impression that it's not so much that you have a hard time understanding others, but rather that you just don't give a damn about anyone but yourself, and make absolutely no effort to understand how others think and feel.

Sorry, I'll get off your lawn now.


We are the 99%. A better world is possible.

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Thu, 01 Mar 2012, 5:30pm #38
Tec
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Sels.

My point is that everyone is dependant on everyone else for SOMETHING. I don't understand why oil seems to stick in your craw, whereas other things don't.

There are thousands of cases of being ripped off by big corporations. I could mention the cellphone companies in the UK and Europe. The utilities, software companies, and many many others.

Even if free petrol fell in cans from heven for nothing, you wouild still need the steel for your car, the copper for the wiring, the plastics, the silicon chips dotted here and there, and a thousand other items before you could be entirely independent. All these things are made by other people - you couldn't make them all yourself from raw materials - and often at outrageous profit levels.

If everyone DID switch to electricity, you would soon find yourself paying outrageous charges for electricity, and oil would become pretty well worthless, but would you be any better off financially? I doubt it. Suppliers charge what they can get, not what it costs them to produce.

You don't seem to make any distinction between synthetic fuels and imported fuels which doesn't seem to make any sense to me, and you seem to be terrified of dependency on other countries in the case of oil but totally unconcerned about all other raw materials that you need which makes even less sense.

As a member of a small nation that has made its living for centuries through trade with other countries this mistrust of all other nations seems very odd to me. Interdependency is a good thing not a bad one. You don't bomb your customers or your suppliers. I want a peaceful world. You maintain peace with trade not isolationism.

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Thu, 01 Mar 2012, 5:39pm #39
Tec
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Sels.

I don't know whether you can read this

http://www.38degrees.org.uk/page/s/the-big-swit...

Its an attempt to operate as a GROUP of consumers and transfer our custom to the cheapest supplier en masse. This is new to the UK, and could well prove interesting. I see no reason why it should not be applied to 'big oil' too if you want to keep them under control.

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Thu, 01 Mar 2012, 5:51pm #40
seslaprime
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Tec wrote:

Sels.

My point is that everyone is dependant on everyone else for SOMETHING. I don't understand why oil seems to stick in your craw, whereas other things don't.

There are thousands of cases of being ripped off by big corporations. I could mention the cellphone companies in the UK and Europe. The utilities, software companies, and many many others.

tec, I understand your view, however, this is an issue that is about choice as well as economics. there are many things in life we can do without. the most basic things we cannot such as Food, Energy and Transportation.

When it comes to things we need for our very survival, these things are a Right rather than Privilege. when it comes to Rights, there Must be choice. otherwise, we get Extorted.

this is reason #2 that Renewable Energy and Electric Vehicles will take over, it cannot be stopped.

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Thu, 01 Mar 2012, 6:00pm #41
Tec
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it cannot be stopped.

Looking at EV sales, it is starting the revolution that is causing problems, not stopping it.

However, I think renewables will take over too. But the vehicles will be powered by renewable oil not electricity.

I can see no advantage of EVs over renewable oil powered ICEVs, and many disadvantages. Mainly (but not exclusively) inadequate ED and unacceptably long chargung times.

There is no acceptable solution to either of these problems let alone both, and little prospect of thjem in the foreseeable future.

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Thu, 01 Mar 2012, 6:55pm #42
seslaprime
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Tec wrote:

it cannot be stopped.

Looking at EV sales, it is starting the revolution that is causing problems, not stopping it.

However, I think renewables will take over too. But the vehicles will be powered by renewable oil not electricity.

I can see no advantage of EVs over renewable oil powered ICEVs, and many disadvantages. Mainly (but not exclusively) inadequate ED and unacceptably long chargung times.

There is no acceptable solution to either of these problems let alone both, and little prospect of thjem in the foreseeable future.

Well the very point of the EV revolution is to improve technology so it is possible to eliminate Oil for transportaion.

It doesnt matter who controls the Oil, where it comes from etc... the fact remains that it is Not me who decides what I will be paying at the pump.

this is Oil's biggest downfall. Now if they made technology that allows individuals to refine their own fuel from natural resources, then Oil would win, at least in short term. but inevitably, Oil will lose out to electricity because no matter what, electricity is and always will be renewable, but most importantly, abunant, easily harvested, and way more efficient.

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Thu, 01 Mar 2012, 8:59pm #43
hoarybat
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I eagerly await oil vehicular independence if not a major weening in my lifetime or in our children's. Everyone knows it's all about the battery/energy to power EV's and they're slowly making gains and are committed. I like to refer to them as Efficient Vehicles just as much as Electric Vehicles with ICE'vs days being numbered.


Lensman Scale: 2 taking too long based on earlier promise/claims.

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Fri, 02 Mar 2012, 8:28am #44
Tec
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...this is Oil's biggest downfall. Now if they made technology that allows individuals to refine their own fuel from natural resources...

But this is exactly what Joule's technology offers. You CAN make your own diesel. All the complex chemistry is carried out for you by their bugs. All you have to do is to expose it to sunlight, and feed it CO2 and separate the fuel oil from water. And you can store the fuel essentially indefinately until you need it.

Nor is Joule the only one to be working on this.

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Fri, 02 Mar 2012, 9:28am #45
hador_nyc
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I have to agree with Tec on this one. I have a 1.5 mile commute; to my office near my home or the train station to NYC when I work there. I bought a new Ford Fusion in February and did not consider the hybrid/electric versions. Why, because the cost of the car did not make sense vs the cost of gas, and I pay roughly $4 a gallon these days where I live. I do buy electricity that is 25% renewable sourced because it's 10% cheaper than buying my power from the utility. I wanted to buy a hybrid/electric, but I fear the battery in a few years wearing out, and I fear the utility of the vehicle if I drive far away; my parents live several states away.

Maybe in a few years; one can hope.

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Fri, 02 Mar 2012, 11:39am #46
seslaprime
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Tec wrote:

...this is Oil's biggest downfall. Now if they made technology that allows individuals to refine their own fuel from natural resources...

But this is exactly what Joule's technology offers. You CAN make your own diesel. All the complex chemistry is carried out for you by their bugs. All you have to do is to expose it to sunlight, and feed it CO2 and separate the fuel oil from water. And you can store the fuel essentially indefinately until you need it.

Nor is Joule the only one to be working on this.

Yes, Looks pretty good but I dont see Joule as a Home based Biofuel manufacture. If fact, they present a system that takes at least an acre of land with some pretty High tech conversion equipement.

They say 1,000 acres to produce enough biodiesel to fuel 100 Big Trucks per year.

It is a Sweet system for sure. But not a serious answer to fuel a worldwide fleet of vehicles.

Trasportation Energy needs to be de-centralized. The Only viable way is with Renewable Electricity.

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Fri, 02 Mar 2012, 11:56am #47
Tec
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The Only viable way is with Renewable Electricity.

You could nationalise it. Worked pretty well in the UK. In thirty years it had set up a national grid, rationalised a variety of voltages and frequencies, and provided a generating infrastructure with plenty of reserve capacity to support it.

Best of all, nobody got ripped off, it being in nobody's interest to do so.

Re-privatisation has resulted in a reversion to the bad old ways. Reserve capacity cut, no investment in new plant, prices going through the roof. A sytem run for shareholders rather than consumers.

I know nationalising anything in teh US is tantamount to a crime against humanity, but really a mixed economy has many benefits.

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Fri, 02 Mar 2012, 8:28pm #48
seslaprime
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Well, It is actually a good idea. But I dont think it would work on a national scale. The main problem I see is people still need to rely on someone to make the fuel. There is a process so there would be an active role for someone to actually do the process. Now you have a business basically selling energy to consumers. Government is going to demand their 25% off the top. And we are back into the same game going on with big oil. Corporations will end up jumping in with Big money and It is game on again.

private back yard systems is the way to go If we want to keep Politics out of our personal energy. Small joule system to make 20-50 gallons per week. We just purchase the quipment, then feed the system, harvest the fuel, just like gardening.

Or very close held Co-ops could work as well. small groups like 10-20 people. where No money changes hands or is involved in any way after equipement is set up. System makes so many gallons a week, gallons get divided equally out to owners.

We would have to convert all our Gasoline burners to Bio-Diesel.

It is nice and would allow us to keep driving our ICE vehicles on cheap fuel.

However, Energy Storage will be developed, Not only because of EVs, but for other things as well. there is a huge demand for High density batteries for everything. So those will come and rapidly.

But with energy storage comes EVs, once a 300 mile $15,000 EV gets out there, it is Game On for sure.

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Fri, 02 Mar 2012, 8:54pm #49
ricinro
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arcing wires will generate a spark. So what? if there is nothing around that spark to burn there will be no fire. A cruddy old ICE is covered with combustible grime. Perhaps EVs will have worn out wires eventually but I don't expect hydrocarbon sludge will be present. Currently vehicles are wired the old fashioned way but there are trends towards the type of circuitry that are found in our computer devices. High voltage busses can also evolve away from damage prone discrete cabling.


Thanks BTV for the blog

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Sat, 03 Mar 2012, 3:06am #50
student
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ricinro wrote:

arcing wires will generate a spark. So what? if there is nothing around that spark to burn there will be no fire. A cruddy old ICE is covered with combustible grime. Perhaps EVs will have worn out wires eventually but I don't expect hydrocarbon sludge will be present.

Surprisingly, the stats show electrical wire insulation is the most common item to first ignite in an ICEV fire. This is followed with a number of general materials such as rubber, plastic, fabric, etc. Hydrocarbons make up a small portion of this.

This is less surprising once you recognize the source of the fire is determined to be electrical powered equipment or electrical wiring in the vast majority of instances.

Considering this in the EV context and parallels seem likely.


Bill Nye says limits for a dielectric are simply what have been demonstrated to date.


Jack LaLanne

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