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True series hybrid is currently bullshit.
It is less efficient and heavier than mechanical transmission with a set of gears with inputs for motor/generator and ICE.

Last edited Tue, 06 Mar 2012, 2:30am by Y_Po

Y_Po wrote:

True series hybrid is currently bullshit.
It is less efficient and heavier than mechanical transmission with a set of gears with inputs for motor/generator and ICE.

A series hybrid may well be less efficient than a mechanical transmission, but why do you think that's important?

As I understand it, an ICEngine can be run much more efficiently if it's not throttled back... if it's run with an open throttle. Since the ICEngine in a car spends nearly all its time throttled back, that makes it horribly inefficient.

As I understand it, the advantage of a series hybrid is it lets a smaller ICEngine run with open throttle whenever it's running at all. It lets the motor average out the power requirement; any extra power (beyond what the small ICEngine will provide) needed for acceleration or driving uphill will come from the battery pack. So why wouldn't it make for an overall more efficient car?

The concept has certainly been proven in ships and train locomotives with diesel-electric drive. Why not cars, too?

The bottom line: Too pricey

http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/05/autos/volt_sale...

If series hybrid made sense, Toyota would be making it. And current system does not prevent one from doing anything series hybrid can do. It just does it better.

It makes sense, but not so much with current pricing.

The thing it can do is drive 30-40 miles without using gas at all, which is the typical commute in the USA.
Can't do that w/a Prius.

Today's fuel injection does not deliver a fixed amount of fuel to the engine, but meters it according to the throttle position, thereby eliminating the situation of excess fuel flowing to the cylinders, when you let off the throttle, like a carburetor does. One of the best ways to improve mpg is to use your brakes less. I constantly see people charge up to a red light and brake hard, then sit there idling, having lost all the inertia. If they would let off the gas and coast, so they didn't have to stop, they would not have to overcome the inertia to get the car from a dead stop, up to speed, and would get better mileage.

CaptainObvious wrote:

The bottom line: Too pricey

http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/05/autos/volt_sale...

Good article Capt.
Pretty much spot on.

CaptainObvious wrote:

The bottom line: Too pricey

http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/05/autos/volt_sale...

Thanks Captain, I think that's a very good analysis. I hope everyone will read the article; it says far more about the Volt than just "too expensive".

http://www.dollarvigilante.com/blog/2012/3/8/fr...

The Volt is a very good example of what happens when the means of production falls into the hands of the State. The system of profit and loss that can only operate when prices are set by the private owners of the materials and the means of production. The Chevy Volt can only exist within the sphere of the state wherein there is no rational economic calculation possible
...
When taking a look at the resources that have been poured into the Volt, one can only come to the conclusion that there was no rational economic calculation present. It is estimated by Tom Gantert that the Volt has received up to $3 Billion in Local, State and Federal Subsidies. And if you believe that GM has indeed sold 6,000 Volts, then the total subsidy per car can be estimated anywhere from $50,000 to $250,000. All of this for a mid-sized 4 door sedan that retails for $39,828 (eligible for a $7,500 federal rebate of course).

Compare that with TATA motors Nano, a four door wonder built in India with a sticker price of just under $3,000 USD for the base model. Without the hampering effects of state intervention and government backed unions monopolizing the labor pool, it is amazing what can be profitable. It’s a wonder the car doesn’t explode into flames.

eggdescrambler wrote:

It is estimated by Tom Gantert that the Volt has received up to $3 Billion in Local, State and Federal Subsidies. And if you believe that GM has indeed sold 6,000 Volts, then the total subsidy per car can be estimated anywhere from $50,000 to $250,000.

The amazing thing is that a certain segment of the population is so willing to believe such ridiculous and obvious juggling of figures.

Even if GM hadn't already paid back the entire loan, how clueless do you have to be to believe the entire loan went to pay for building Volts?

Lensman wrote:

Thank you for confirming what GM said, about the Volt having become the target of political propaganda.

The amazing thing is that a certain segment of the population is so willing to believe such ridiculous and obvious juggling of figures.

Even if GM hadn't already paid back the entire loan, how clueless do you have to be to believe the entire loan went to pay for building Volts?

Yah right, if they say they repaid it sure, they must have done it right....
Just like Enron was the stock to buy and all the accounting was perfect.
{and long list of other examples}

teslafan49 wrote:

Today's fuel injection does not deliver a fixed amount of fuel to the engine, but meters it according to the throttle position, thereby eliminating the situation of excess fuel flowing to the cylinders, when you let off the throttle, like a carburetor does.

I'm far from being an automobile engineer, but even I know that the efficiency problem with throttling an ICEngine has a lot more to do with compression ratios than the amount of fuel squirted into the cylinders.

Sure, replacing the carburetor with fuel injection improved ICEngine efficiency. But, teslafan, it didn't improve it that much.

teslafan49 wrote:

Today's fuel injection does not deliver a fixed amount of fuel to the engine, but meters it according to the throttle position, thereby eliminating the situation of excess fuel flowing to the cylinders, when you let off the throttle, like a carburetor does. One of the best ways to improve mpg is to use your brakes less. I constantly see people charge up to a red light and brake hard, then sit there idling, having lost all the inertia. If they would let off the gas and coast, so they didn't have to stop, they would not have to overcome the inertia to get the car from a dead stop, up to speed, and would get better mileage.

Right, this also includes regen braking. Regen braking should not return much because you should not be braking much.

eggdescrambler wrote:

http://www.dollarvigilante.com/blog/2012/3/8/fr...

The Volt is a very good example of what happens when the means of production falls into the hands of the State. The system of profit and loss that can only operate when prices are set by the private owners of the materials and the means of production. The Chevy Volt can only exist within the sphere of the state wherein there is no rational economic calculation possible
...
When taking a look at the resources that have been poured into the Volt, one can only come to the conclusion that there was no rational economic calculation present. It is estimated by Tom Gantert that the Volt has received up to $3 Billion in Local, State and Federal Subsidies. And if you believe that GM has indeed sold 6,000 Volts, then the total subsidy per car can be estimated anywhere from $50,000 to $250,000. All of this for a mid-sized 4 door sedan that retails for $39,828 (eligible for a $7,500 federal rebate of course).

Compare that with TATA motors Nano, a four door wonder built in India with a sticker price of just under $3,000 USD for the base model. Without the hampering effects of state intervention and government backed unions monopolizing the labor pool, it is amazing what can be profitable. It’s a wonder the car doesn’t explode into flames.

If I remember right, the Volt program was well underway before GM accepted a nickel of government money, so this isn't a great example of the state controlling private industry.

Every problem is not a nail to be pounded with the 'Government is Evil' hammer.

CaptainObvious wrote:

eggdescrambler wrote:

http://www.dollarvigilante.com/blog/2012/3/8/fr...

The Volt is a very good example of what happens when the means of production falls into the hands of the State. The system of profit and loss that can only operate when prices are set by the private owners of the materials and the means of production. The Chevy Volt can only exist within the sphere of the state wherein there is no rational economic calculation possible
...
When taking a look at the resources that have been poured into the Volt, one can only come to the conclusion that there was no rational economic calculation present. It is estimated by Tom Gantert that the Volt has received up to $3 Billion in Local, State and Federal Subsidies. And if you believe that GM has indeed sold 6,000 Volts, then the total subsidy per car can be estimated anywhere from $50,000 to $250,000. All of this for a mid-sized 4 door sedan that retails for $39,828 (eligible for a $7,500 federal rebate of course).

Compare that with TATA motors Nano, a four door wonder built in India with a sticker price of just under $3,000 USD for the base model. Without the hampering effects of state intervention and government backed unions monopolizing the labor pool, it is amazing what can be profitable. It’s a wonder the car doesn’t explode into flames.

If I remember right, the Volt program was well underway before GM accepted a nickel of government money, so this isn't a great example of the state controlling private industry.

Every problem is not a nail to be pounded with the 'Government is Evil' hammer.

Not only was the Volt started before the crash but the Leaf also falls into the same category. What was the Gov control that led to the Leaf? Your theory is BS.

The advantages of ICE used as generator as opposed to ICE used as propulsion should be obvious.

we can theorized by looking at non-hybrid ICE cars that show tremendous fuel economy. if we were to move that ICE to generator and put Electric motor for sole propulsion, this eliminates the taxing of the economy caused by irregular throttling and torque. by keeping ICE at optimum RPM and Torque, we can get regular or steady fuel consumption.

so if ICE powered generator can operate at a consumption rate of 1 Gal/hr under full load, we can theoretically get 60 miles/gal at steady freeway speeds. add in Regen and battery power with generator cycling battery and powering drive motor simultaneously, we can use Battery power half the time to double range.

these Series Hybrids should get Over 100 Miles/gal. I think GM has completely over engineered the Volt. added weight were it isnt needed i.e. their proprietary trans and too heavy ICE/Generator. effectively demolishing theoretical economy.

seslaprime wrote:

The advantages of ICE used as generator as opposed to ICE used as propulsion should be obvious.

we can theorized by looking at non-hybrid ICE cars that show tremendous fuel economy. if we were to move that ICE to generator and put Electric motor for sole propulsion, this eliminates the taxing of the economy caused by irregular throttling and torque. by keeping ICE at optimum RPM and Torque, we can get regular or steady fuel consumption.

so if ICE powered generator can operate at a consumption rate of 1 Gal/hr under full load, we can theoretically get 60 miles/gal at steady freeway speeds. add in Regen and battery power with generator cycling battery and powering drive motor simultaneously, we can use Battery power half the time to double range.

these Series Hybrids should get Over 100 Miles/gal. I think GM has completely over engineered the Volt. added weight were it isnt needed i.e. their proprietary trans and too heavy ICE/Generator. effectively demolishing theoretical economy.

I agree. For the foreseeable future hybrids will win out. I think this will help the move to pure EV. The technology will mature in Hybrids and eventually pure EV will be the accepted next step. 10 years till sales of hybrids/EVs are higher than ICE sales(15 years for trucks) IMHO.

Oil prices are the driver of this equation.

Yes, and when you read the blogs of Volt Owners, it is clear that people love the experience of driving an Electric Powered car. Absolutely no negatives as far as comfort and response.

The one aspect that stands out is the 35 miles all electric range. however, once you deplete that battery and start to consume fuel, the Volt turns in to just another gas guzzler.

For people who make it home to plug in before ICE kicks in, get that awesome fuel economy on a regular basis. these people seem to be the ones who benefit the most.

One blogger pointed out that people who really need to save on fuel, are severely "Priced Out" of the Chevy Volt. I must agree with this analogy.

GM can really build these cars for a fraction of what they state. Many areas can be improved. looking forward to Gen 2 GM Volt.

The Volt ICE is a retrofit from an existing engine. Matching up a purpose-built smaller ICE should improve the mpg considerably. Then lower weight/cost and higher capacity batteries should make the car more affordable.

Gotta love that Bob Lutz:
The Chevy Volt, Bill O'Reilly And The Postman's Butt

http://www.forbes.com/sites/boblutz/2012/03/12/...

CaptainObvious wrote:

Gotta love that Bob Lutz:
The Chevy Volt, Bill O'Reilly And The Postman's Butt

http://www.forbes.com/sites/boblutz/2012/03/12/...

I saw Bob Lutz on Bill Maher's show a few weeks ago. He said that any politician promising cheap gas is either clueless or lying.

I believe that the sweet spot for an ICE is more a matter of the ignition/cam timing than compression ratios. If you consider the case of a Harley Davison Motorcycle, it sounds 'sloppy' at idle because the cam is timed to open and close the valves for something like 7000 RPM. While the ignition spark can be electronically advanced or retarded to overcome the changing demands of different RPM's, the valve timing is fixed, and there is only 1 ideal RPM for a given Cam arrangement. That is why running an enigine at this speed and charging a battery can be beneficial despite the losses incurred in turning that power from mechanical to electrical and back to mechanical again. High octane gasoline is only needed in high compression engines (or possibly turbo-charged engines) where the compression ratio of the engine exceeds the detonation point of regular fuel. The semi-serial hybrid nature of the Volt is designed to eliminate the transition losses that occur when the car is running at a speed close enough to allow the engine to drive it directly. At least, that is how I understand it.

On another note, Student, you no longer seem to try to challenge the implication that you are a paid poster. Did you just tire of doing it, or have you admitted it? I am just curious, no personal attack intended.